The Lone Ranger

Here's a simple experiment you can try. Use a random number generator (a computer program, for example, or 10-sided dice) to randomly generate a number between 1 and 1,000,000.

Burn that number into your memory.

Now ask your sister to tell you what the number is that you're thinking of -- only one try is allowed, and no hints are given. Repeat the experiment five or six times, generating a new random number each time.

Let us know your results.

Cheers,

Michael

The Dionysian

About a month ago I posted an account of a very vivid obe that I had that corresponded with reality in my opinion. I don't know what I was thinking when actually expecting people to believe my account. I suppose it was my deep conviction of the validity of the obe that got in the way of my own personal skepticism and my respect for other's skepticism. The things you claim to have experienced, I have never experienced and I did not witness you having these experiences thus I am under no obligation to believe them as they seem to contradict the laws of nature as we know them. Now, these things may have actually happened but how am I or anyone else here supposed to believe you?

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: TPaine ]</p>

Reverend Ruin

During my teens I was avidly into supernatural phenomena, spiritualism, occult, etc., etc. I tinkered with Ouija boards, Tarot cards and the like.

My friends and I even formed a small group of "ghost hunters." Once we were old enough to drive we would take trips to famously haunted places. (Including the "most haunted" cemetary in Chicago. We camped overnight.) Nothing. We never found any evidence for ghosts. All the photos we took were a waste of film.

I tried astral projection, and even though my friend GUSHED about how he was flying over this building or that building, *I* could never do it. Years later my friend admitted he was lying to me because he wanted to believe so badly that it worked.

I tinkered with ESP "kits" and found that I could never really "tune into" extra-sensory perception. Other friends had pretty much the same luck with the ESP cards.

Years rolled by, and the lack of evidence piled up. From EXPERIENCE I started to doubt the existence of all things supernatural. (A precursor to my atheism, surely.)

I, too, experience hypnogogic hallucinations around bed time, or while in bed, or after just waking up. The most vivid one I can remember is a hideous scarecrow hanging on the back of my door. It lifted its head and looked at me. TERRIFYING. I have a very active imagination, so they're fairly frequent with me. Just last week after reading a bunch of H.P. Lovecraft stories I literally saw tentacles squirming from my closet. Before that, a few months back, I saw one of those metal claws you find at the carnival prize booths hanging over my bed.

CubicGate

I understand why you would say that. It is hard to believe stuff like this for some people - especially if they’re being told about it from some random girl on the Internet. But I actually experienced it. It was just too real to be a dream or something. I wasn't paralyzed at all either. And both of us saw the same thing. My sister was screaming, so I can't see how she was half asleep.

If you experienced what I described, and if your sister saw it, and it seemed totally real to you - would you still dismiss it as a fantasy??? A person has to trust their own senses or else how can you even live? That is what is so hard for me. People tell me I should be skeptical of these things, but they are so real!

If I started doubting these events, then I might as well start wondering if my teacher is real, or if my family is real. You see what I am getting at? If you experienced stuff like this all the time how could you just tell yourself it wasn't real? I don't understand.

But I can understand why you have trouble believing me. It's like I said I'm not trying to convince everyone else - I know I can't do that. I'm just wondering if all of you could so easily dismiss these things if they really happened to you. Thanks! :-)

CubicGate

That sounds interesting Lone Ranger - we'll try that! I don't know how well it will work though. We have trouble putting really exact information into each other’s minds. But we can share general feelings and sometimes thoughts about people and places. Sometimes we do get real specific stuff, like one time I asked my sister the answer to a test question telepathically, and she told me! But that kind of thing doesn't happen very often. At least not yet, we're still practicing! :-) I'll let you know how the "experiment" goes! Thanks for the idea! :-)

echidna

Maybe this is the main problem. Actually eyes and ears can be quite deceiving. Optical illusions, conjuring, “Chinese” whispers, hallucinations , dreams are examples of how easily our senses can deceive us.

Literal trust in your senses can lead you to such beliefs & this is the most likely explanation for the endurance of such ideas, but basic knowledge of psychology and neurology (which CAN be reproduced under laboratory conditions) can quite happily explain each of your examples.

Given that NO ONE has EVER been able to reproduce ANY paranormal event under laboratory conditions (despite huge incentives), which explanation is more likely, the paranormal or the scientific ???

sighhswolf

CubicGate:
"Well, the way I see it is, lets be skeptical and say that each event I have experienced has a 90% chance of being some kinda trick or me fooling myself. That leaves 10% of them being real, so part of it just has to be real. That's what I meant about the odds. As far as evaluating each event on its own merit - I think that is a great idea. But it's not easy to just capture this stuff in a test tube and put it in a lab somewhere. So you just have to trust you senses to a certain extent."

Cubi,
It is interesting that you would attempt to use a logical formula to support your experiences.
Your theory seems to indicate that your experiences (in your own mind) have at least a 90% probability of misinterpretation.
Now it is not a question of whether or not you have had unexplainable (in your own opinion) experiences because that is very probably the truth.
Now lets say that those 10% that you would call
paranormal and "real" were in fact REAL.
I have no reason to doubt that you have had experiences that you consider to be unexplainable.
But the truth is that there are many factors and situations that we as normal human beings cannot explain without assistance from experts qualified to examine those experiences objectively.

Those experiences that are inexplicable to you, may be in fact anomolies of perfectly natural events.
In the last few years science has found that high voltage power lines, and even undetectable changes in the earths magnetic field may contribute to a shift in what our human minds consider as reality.
Our senses as humans can be altered by many small changes in our normal enviornment.
NDE's and alien abduction experiences can be manufactured in a lab condition, by passing a small electromagnetic charge through the temporal lobe of the brain.

You may be more subject to changes in magnetic anomolies, or you may be suffering from a disorder called temporal Lobe epilepsy, which can create the same symptoms. Many researchers today believe that it is entirely possible that Joan of Arc, Paul, and possibly Jebus himself could have been sufferers of TLE.

There are many explanations to the unexplainable if you take the time to look for them instead of simply assuming they are "supernatural".
I would never presume to tell you that you have experienced something you cant explain, only that the natural universe holds many mysteries and some of those we have only started to understand.
But if something is classified as "supernatural", then by it's very existence it ceases to be supernatural.
The moment you claim knowledge of the supernatural, it moves it squarely into the realm
of the natural universe.
That is rather hard to get across to many theists
in regard to their gods.

Wolf

echidna

CubicGate, I just came back from the moon. Psychokinetically lifted myself there & invoked chi so I didn't need to breathe.

Do you have an explanation ?

CubicGate

I just knew someone else here would have also had some of the same experiences as me!! What I don't understand, TPaine, is why you doubt the truth of the experience. Didn't it seem very real? If so, how can you doubt that and not doubt the sky or the stars??

It sounds to me like you might be naturally sensitive. Perhaps if you worked at it more you could have obe's at will. I have read about people who can do that. That must be sooooo cool!!! :-)

What I am wondering is have you really explored this experience completely? Have you ever tried to have another obe? Or have you posted on forums where other experiencers could help you to understand what was happening?

Believe me I understand why you would be skeptical, but have you looked at it from any other points of view?? What if it was real?? Why not "experiment" a little to find out? Think of all the wonderful things you'd be missing if it was real and you dismissed it without really looking into it.

Well, I hope I didn't sound too preachy! :-) I just don't want you to miss out! Thanks for the post! :-)

echidna

Ahhh, but can they reproduce the experience of rectal probing ?