Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cipher Girl · 05-20-2003, 10:48 PM

Hi RationalBAC

Unfortunately with a big population, you are bound to have some who are one brick short of a load.

Still trying to say this is an isolated incident? Well it happened at the time of the Oklahoma City bombing. Since we were a government contractor and the guy was a subcontractor, our site manager decided to have us talk with the Midwest US Attorney General's office. They investigated, and our company removed several people.

But the scary part was, this guy would brag about his church having people in law enforcement on thier side (specifically the FBI). He was also involved in one of the local militias. Scary, deluded people.

The only way to get out of the back of the bus to to fight for the right to sit at the front. And the only way we can win is to have the support of the moderate christians, since as a small minority, we are ignored. But if we do nothing, then nothing changes.

You should read some of the accounts of the nazi's rise to power. Its scary that a small group of people could take over a country. But the scary part is the apathetic christian majority that did not care about the minorities that were the targets. You are not a target of these types of people, so you see no threat.

And none of that very basic stuff will ever change in this great nation of ours.

Not if some of these people have thier way.

I forgot who said it but "Eternal vigilence is the price of freedom."

Rational BAC · 05-21-2003, 06:08 AM

What happened in Germany in the 20's and 30's is a little scary-----and it should be a lesson for all nations to "watch their back" so to speak.

But the good old USA is really not post WW1 Germany and never will be.

Germany after WW! had a very short taste of democracy---Democracy takes a pretty long time to develop as something expected and demanded by the populace of any nation. Representative democracy was something the Germans were completely unaccustomed to at the time.

Terrible economic times and the rise of a very unusual but charismatic leader (the Anti-Christ?--possibly). --------sent that nation down the tubes to totalitarian fascism.----and much much worse things.

Look at Germany today-----after almost 50 years of a democratic government. Stable, with a populace who could no longer imagine being in a totalitarian state and would never again allow it IMHO

Not saying there is no danger at all. The USA came very close to "losing it" back during the bad times of the 30's.

But the sky is not falling.

Got to "watch our back" a little and be a little careful----------but after 200 plus years of this democratic republic--the American people are NOT going to throw it all away.

wildernesse · 05-21-2003, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zora
I said that 50% of the population reads at or below an eighth grade level.

Do you have a source for your statistics?

Quote:

At your church next Sunday, spearhead a letter writing campaign to your respective legislators demanding repeal of all laws discriminating against atheists in all states.

Laws such as. . . . While I don't doubt that some exist, I was wondering if you had any specifically in mind, as well as the history behind such legislation and how such legislation is enforced.

Quote:

Pehaps you could all wear T-shirts with your beliefs on them, so I will know which Christians want me dead, which ones just want me to burn in hell eternally, or which ones think that maybe Christ was really only a philosopher and hell isn't real.

Perhaps you could treat individuals as just that, individuals.

Quote:

If the government came to put me in jail as an atheist enemy of the nation, I don't think there would be a majority outcry. A few Christian friends who know I'm a good person might protest and try to help but would quickly abandon the effort if they came under scrutiny and feared suffering the same fate. Guaranteed.

I doubt that atheist friends of yours would rise to the occasion in any greater percentage than Christians. Humans as a whole are more interested in self-preservation than helping a non-relative--and this extends even to direct descendants in severe cases.

Quote:

Its easy for the majority to say the minority is "paranoid" and the majority of the majority are just nice people. Then read all you can about mob mentality. Then, just for giggles, try representing yourself as atheist to a group of Christians you don't know. Stop in at the first Pentacostal church and tell them you are NEVER going to be a believer and their beliefs are all BS. Feel the love!

I don't think that atheists are paranoid--just human and forming groups of "us" vs. "them" while complaining that "they" are doing the same thing. Of course, "we" are always correct.

Quote:

Sorry you're so "weary" of being judged by your belief and not your actions and being lumped together with all those nasty fundamentalists. Are you being persecuted, or reviled? (I forget.) Sucks, doesn't it???

I'm not being persecuted or discriminated against. People here do express anything from dislike to hot, burning hatred of my beliefs--and occasionally for the person holding those beliefs. What many Christians who interact here are tired of is the strawman of Christianity that is built and rebuilt. However, I have come to understand that it is great fun for those who build them, and I can remember what fun it was when I was a child to make scarecrows, so I'm torn between pointing out that your creation isn't life-like and letting you enjoy yourselves.

--tibac

Rational BAC · 05-21-2003, 09:59 AM

Great post-------- Wildernesse--------

I applaud you.

Calzaer · 05-21-2003, 10:06 AM

Even IF (big if) it's a minority of Christians that cause the problems for atheists, that minority still has a NUMERICAL SUPERIORITY over the people they're attempting to oppress through legislation and threats.

In other words, there are more fringe Christians than atheists. It doesn't hurt that the "moderate" Christians never say anything publically against the fringies. They just mutter under their breath or tell their friends "Oh, I disagree with him". My theory is that the only difference between a "fringe" Christian and a "moderate" Christian is that the fringe Christian has the balls to say what he really believes in public, while the moderate just keeps it to himself and denies it when asked (but votes for the fringe-guy's candidate in November).

Smilin · 05-21-2003, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Great post-------- Wildernesse--------

I applaud you.

HERE! HERE!

Sabine Grant · 05-21-2003, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zora
Hello, Sabine Grant....

No...I did not say education equals intelligence. I said a large percentage of the population is not of the highest intelligence. Period.

I said that 50% of the population reads at or below an eighth grade level. Do you think these people are critically reading the Bible for themselves? Or, are they accepting somebody else's interpretation and becoming familiar with only the "good" parts somebody else has picked out for them?

No, education and common sense are NOT the same thing. So I assume that at least some of the educated people who attend regular Christian services lack common sense, as do some of those conducting the services. So, when Christians point to "scientists" who believe in creationism, I must assume that at least some of these scientists don't have enough sense to pound sand in a rathole.

Surely you are not suggesting that education does not complement intelligence or that intelligence is not capable of self-education outside a university. Library cards in the US are free.

When a Christian member of federal government stands up in front of his peers, preferably on national TV, and states this nation affords the same rights to atheists as to theists because our Constitution insists on it...and when I hear a majority of Christians voicing their approval and support, I will quit lumping you all together as "they." At your church next Sunday, spearhead a letter writing campaign to your respective legislators demanding repeal of all laws discriminating against atheists in all states. Send hundreds of copies to Texas. Send copies to 100 Christian websites. Post a copy here.

I am basing my opinion of your beliefs on the book you claim is divinely inspired and the words that came out of your savior's mouth, according to his disciples. (I've read Calvin, Wesley and others.) I am further basing it on the historical actions of Christians who based their actions on the same book/savior/reformer.

Pehaps you could all wear T-shirts with your beliefs on them, so I will know which Christians want me dead, which ones just want me to burn in hell eternally, or which ones think that maybe Christ was really only a philosopher and hell isn't real. Oh, yeah...then there is the issue of my being under demon attack as mentioned in a recently received religious tract. Could you clear that up?

My criticism of Christianity is the same one of 2000 years ago, still unanswered. If you have not read any of the ancient criticisms, and if your belief system does not encourage the study of these criticisms, I stand behind my statement that you rely on ignorance. (not the same as stupidity)

I do not hate/dislike/despise Christians. But, I can tell you from a lifetime of firsthand experience I do not trust Christians to stand up for me or protect me. If the government came to put me in jail as an atheist enemy of the nation, I don't think there would be a majority outcry. A few Christian friends who know I'm a good person might protest and try to help but would quickly abandon the effort if they came under scrutiny and feared suffering the same fate. Guaranteed.

Its easy for the majority to say the minority is "paranoid" and the majority of the majority are just nice people. Then read all you can about mob mentality. Then, just for giggles, try representing yourself as atheist to a group of Christians you don't know. Stop in at the first Pentacostal church and tell them you are NEVER going to be a believer and their beliefs are all BS. Feel the love!

Sorry you're so "weary" of being judged by your belief and not your actions and being lumped together with all those nasty fundamentalists. Are you being persecuted, or reviled? (I forget.) Sucks, doesn't it???

hello Zora... I hope you can see what the oversuse of assumptions can cause....I am not an american citizen . However,I do participate in a christian group which supports Separation of Church and State. No..I do not feel persecuted or reviled . Another poster may have used those words.

However it appears that the author of the Op does feel somewhat oppressed.

Feel free to pursue your semantic goal by purposefuly using " they" to define millions of individuals spread among so many cultures and attribute to them whichever negativity you wish. I will stick to moderation and respect of individuality.

ImGod · 05-21-2003, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
Feel free to pursue your semantic goal by purposefuly using " they" to define millions of individuals spread among so many cultures and attribute to them whichever negativity you wish. I will stick to moderation and respect of individuality.

How very un-christian of you.

Conchobar · 05-21-2003, 07:24 PM

Wildernesse:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At your church next Sunday, spearhead a letter writing campaign to your respective legislators demanding repeal of all laws discriminating against atheists in all states.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Laws such as. . . . While I don't doubt that some exist, I was wondering if you had any specifically in mind, as well as the history behind such legislation and how such legislation is enforced.

I am unfamiliar with American Law apart from the popular rumour that you have more laws per capita than any European nation.

Discrimination against Atheists in America is not legal discrimination. It is private and perfectly legal. 93% of American Scientists are Atheist of Agnostic accordiing to the National Science Foundation (I think). Yet a majority of American physicians (science trained professionals) will not admit unbelief. Interestingly family practitioners who must deal directly with the public and build a practice with the patient directly, rarely is an open Atheist. Patients simply don't want to be treated by and Atheistic doctor. So FP doctors, several in a group I met in Edinburgh at a meeting, when asked by me, admitted that they were atheists but could not admit such "at home" or lose their practice by patient boycotts. Specialists get patients by doctor referral and are less at risk and as I expected, my fellow Neurologists from America generally admited atheism.

Private small businessmen/women, doctors, lawyers, or even gardeners are likely to face private and legal discrimination by Americans who largely hate Atheists.

Conchobar

Zora · 05-21-2003, 08:07 PM

Oh, dear...I'm such a terrible person!

I originally replied to a post in the secular lounge, a support forum for non-theists.

I am a new poster to II. My decision to post in the secular lounge was to seek support from other non-theistic people because of some truly terrible treatment from Christians in my community. To recap that post, a conversation, which started out as part of the "Divine Commission"...ended with my being told to "shut up for my own good" more or less. (Just because I quietly stated my opinion, rather than lie. I am a short, soft spoken, reserved little old lady.) This attitude is rampant here: Jews, homosexuals, atheists, people who don't beat their kids.....all responsible for the decline of American society..are slammed in the newspaper continually, by the editor and letters to him. (Madeline Murray O'Hare...well, she deserved to be killed. God got even with her!)

This current thread was moved from a different forum...and then the theists started in.

A close friend, when the pledge controversy came up, took to forwarding emails to me...."Don't like Under God...get the hell out of my country." etc., etc. She apologized when I called her on it. But, I would NEVER have considered sending her a Catholic joke (her faith) or a criticism of her faith. Still, she felt justified in forwarding that crap everywhere, and it was supposed to make me feel better that I was "accidentally" included on the list.

I'm a grandmother. I was around for the addition of "under God" to the pledge. It was ghastly, because my parents had to call us kids in and advise us to just say it and not make waves. My Dad said it was more important to stay safe and live to fight another day. (This was the McCarthy era, remember. Lives were ruined as a matter of course.)

Then we moved (with my Dad's job) to the Bible belt. It was awful. Hardly a day went by when there wasn't some religious descrimination going on, mostly against the 2 Jewish children. My Mom spoke to the Jewish Mom, then my parents warned us to "keep quiet" and not let on. We were given the name of a church in a neighboring town to say we attended..(a minority religion for the south.)

A gay teacher, a wonderful person and instructor, was fired when some "Christian" senior boys went to a town far away from ours looking for some gays to beat up and saw him in a gay bar. Their parents had him out of the school 2 days later. He had taught there for 10 years without incident. My father was the lone objector to his dismissal.

I remember when teenagers thought an effective birth control method was to take a bottle of coke, shake it up, pop the cap and insert it as a douche; when it was illegal to provide birth control information to an unmarried woman; separate drinking fountains, entrances and schools for blacks...and Bible quotes to support them all.

In the big long post I made, the only thing you can find to question is where did I get the 50% figure. (C-Span senate debate, figures supplied by Dept. of Education.)

And, I have a chip on my shoulder. No, honey....it used to be a muzzle but I finally gnawed through it. It took 40 years.

I do not go to Christian websites and insult Christians. I go to non-theistic websites and talk to others that think the same way I do. If you don't want to be criticised, go to a website of your own.

The irony of trying to live the atheist experience with a jab at John Ashcroft (Pentacostal) was obviously over your heads. No, I did not literally go to a Pentacostal church and announce I was an atheist and would never be converted. (It was kind of like an allegory, you know??)

Its wonderful that you have such Christian unity in some cases, and such Christian diversity in others. Its even more wonderful that you have learned the platitude "I don't dislike atheists, I dislike atheism" or whatever variable you choose. Well...I don't dislike Christians, I dislike Christianity. Does that make YOU feel better?

I don't care a flip what you think of me and my posts. Nothing you have said changes my opinion of your religion and its effect on you and society. There hasn't been a single admission from a Christian that anything terrible has ever been done in the name of Jesus. No backward glance at history, the greatest teacher, has been taken. No responsibility for persecution of non-Christians has been owned up to. No apology for any past wrongs has been offered. No assurances of working toward equal rights has been made. Its all been excuses and fingerpointing.

I'm just paranoid, or belligerent, or divisive. You don't even see that you are equally guilty. Great "America" will take care of it all. The majority of mainstream Christians "aren't going to allow our freedoms to come apart at the seams." (And I really don't care what non-American Christians think...I have a lot more concern for what non-American non-Christians with the bomb think when Dubya proclaims them inferior because they aren't practicing a "real" religion.) Flip on C-Span for a couple weeks. Read the ACLU website on the Patriots Act, and Patriot II. Check out Planned Parenthood and N.O.W. to see the plans for birth control. Read. Think!

Now, I'm off to the Secular Lounge permanently. I've been talked at by Christians all my life. Take all the shots you want. You get to have the last word. But first, reread the post about the atheist who was threatened with death. The problem isn't solved just because YOU are "nice" or caused because I'm an "uppity atheist." She (or he) wouldn't be less dead if the trigger was actually pulled by a fanatic.....that's the point.

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05-20-2003, 10:48 PM	#41
Cipher Girl Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 657	Hi RationalBAC Unfortunately with a big population, you are bound to have some who are one brick short of a load. Still trying to say this is an isolated incident? Well it happened at the time of the Oklahoma City bombing. Since we were a government contractor and the guy was a subcontractor, our site manager decided to have us talk with the Midwest US Attorney General's office. They investigated, and our company removed several people. But the scary part was, this guy would brag about his church having people in law enforcement on thier side (specifically the FBI). He was also involved in one of the local militias. Scary, deluded people. The only way to get out of the back of the bus to to fight for the right to sit at the front. And the only way we can win is to have the support of the moderate christians, since as a small minority, we are ignored. But if we do nothing, then nothing changes. You should read some of the accounts of the nazi's rise to power. Its scary that a small group of people could take over a country. But the scary part is the apathetic christian majority that did not care about the minorities that were the targets. You are not a target of these types of people, so you see no threat. And none of that very basic stuff will ever change in this great nation of ours. Not if some of these people have thier way. I forgot who said it but "Eternal vigilence is the price of freedom."

05-21-2003, 06:08 AM	#42
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	What happened in Germany in the 20's and 30's is a little scary-----and it should be a lesson for all nations to "watch their back" so to speak. But the good old USA is really not post WW1 Germany and never will be. Germany after WW! had a very short taste of democracy---Democracy takes a pretty long time to develop as something expected and demanded by the populace of any nation. Representative democracy was something the Germans were completely unaccustomed to at the time. Terrible economic times and the rise of a very unusual but charismatic leader (the Anti-Christ?--possibly). --------sent that nation down the tubes to totalitarian fascism.----and much much worse things. Look at Germany today-----after almost 50 years of a democratic government. Stable, with a populace who could no longer imagine being in a totalitarian state and would never again allow it IMHO Not saying there is no danger at all. The USA came very close to "losing it" back during the bad times of the 30's. But the sky is not falling. Got to "watch our back" a little and be a little careful----------but after 200 plus years of this democratic republic--the American people are NOT going to throw it all away.

05-21-2003, 09:59 AM	#44
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Great post-------- Wildernesse-------- I applaud you.

05-21-2003, 10:06 AM	#45
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	Even IF (big if) it's a minority of Christians that cause the problems for atheists, that minority still has a NUMERICAL SUPERIORITY over the people they're attempting to oppress through legislation and threats. In other words, there are more fringe Christians than atheists. It doesn't hurt that the "moderate" Christians never say anything publically against the fringies. They just mutter under their breath or tell their friends "Oh, I disagree with him". My theory is that the only difference between a "fringe" Christian and a "moderate" Christian is that the fringe Christian has the balls to say what he really believes in public, while the moderate just keeps it to himself and denies it when asked (but votes for the fringe-guy's candidate in November).

05-21-2003, 07:24 PM	#49
Conchobar Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Emain Macha, Uladh Posts: 176	Wildernesse: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At your church next Sunday, spearhead a letter writing campaign to your respective legislators demanding repeal of all laws discriminating against atheists in all states. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Laws such as. . . . While I don't doubt that some exist, I was wondering if you had any specifically in mind, as well as the history behind such legislation and how such legislation is enforced. I am unfamiliar with American Law apart from the popular rumour that you have more laws per capita than any European nation. Discrimination against Atheists in America is not legal discrimination. It is private and perfectly legal. 93% of American Scientists are Atheist of Agnostic accordiing to the National Science Foundation (I think). Yet a majority of American physicians (science trained professionals) will not admit unbelief. Interestingly family practitioners who must deal directly with the public and build a practice with the patient directly, rarely is an open Atheist. Patients simply don't want to be treated by and Atheistic doctor. So FP doctors, several in a group I met in Edinburgh at a meeting, when asked by me, admitted that they were atheists but could not admit such "at home" or lose their practice by patient boycotts. Specialists get patients by doctor referral and are less at risk and as I expected, my fellow Neurologists from America generally admited atheism. Private small businessmen/women, doctors, lawyers, or even gardeners are likely to face private and legal discrimination by Americans who largely hate Atheists. Conchobar

05-21-2003, 08:07 PM	#50
Zora Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Missouri Posts: 571	Oh, dear...I'm such a terrible person! I originally replied to a post in the secular lounge, a support forum for non-theists. I am a new poster to II. My decision to post in the secular lounge was to seek support from other non-theistic people because of some truly terrible treatment from Christians in my community. To recap that post, a conversation, which started out as part of the "Divine Commission"...ended with my being told to "shut up for my own good" more or less. (Just because I quietly stated my opinion, rather than lie. I am a short, soft spoken, reserved little old lady.) This attitude is rampant here: Jews, homosexuals, atheists, people who don't beat their kids.....all responsible for the decline of American society..are slammed in the newspaper continually, by the editor and letters to him. (Madeline Murray O'Hare...well, she deserved to be killed. God got even with her!) This current thread was moved from a different forum...and then the theists started in. A close friend, when the pledge controversy came up, took to forwarding emails to me...."Don't like Under God...get the hell out of my country." etc., etc. She apologized when I called her on it. But, I would NEVER have considered sending her a Catholic joke (her faith) or a criticism of her faith. Still, she felt justified in forwarding that crap everywhere, and it was supposed to make me feel better that I was "accidentally" included on the list. I'm a grandmother. I was around for the addition of "under God" to the pledge. It was ghastly, because my parents had to call us kids in and advise us to just say it and not make waves. My Dad said it was more important to stay safe and live to fight another day. (This was the McCarthy era, remember. Lives were ruined as a matter of course.) Then we moved (with my Dad's job) to the Bible belt. It was awful. Hardly a day went by when there wasn't some religious descrimination going on, mostly against the 2 Jewish children. My Mom spoke to the Jewish Mom, then my parents warned us to "keep quiet" and not let on. We were given the name of a church in a neighboring town to say we attended..(a minority religion for the south.) A gay teacher, a wonderful person and instructor, was fired when some "Christian" senior boys went to a town far away from ours looking for some gays to beat up and saw him in a gay bar. Their parents had him out of the school 2 days later. He had taught there for 10 years without incident. My father was the lone objector to his dismissal. I remember when teenagers thought an effective birth control method was to take a bottle of coke, shake it up, pop the cap and insert it as a douche; when it was illegal to provide birth control information to an unmarried woman; separate drinking fountains, entrances and schools for blacks...and Bible quotes to support them all. In the big long post I made, the only thing you can find to question is where did I get the 50% figure. (C-Span senate debate, figures supplied by Dept. of Education.) And, I have a chip on my shoulder. No, honey....it used to be a muzzle but I finally gnawed through it. It took 40 years. I do not go to Christian websites and insult Christians. I go to non-theistic websites and talk to others that think the same way I do. If you don't want to be criticised, go to a website of your own. The irony of trying to live the atheist experience with a jab at John Ashcroft (Pentacostal) was obviously over your heads. No, I did not literally go to a Pentacostal church and announce I was an atheist and would never be converted. (It was kind of like an allegory, you know??) Its wonderful that you have such Christian unity in some cases, and such Christian diversity in others. Its even more wonderful that you have learned the platitude "I don't dislike atheists, I dislike atheism" or whatever variable you choose. Well...I don't dislike Christians, I dislike Christianity. Does that make YOU feel better? I don't care a flip what you think of me and my posts. Nothing you have said changes my opinion of your religion and its effect on you and society. There hasn't been a single admission from a Christian that anything terrible has ever been done in the name of Jesus. No backward glance at history, the greatest teacher, has been taken. No responsibility for persecution of non-Christians has been owned up to. No apology for any past wrongs has been offered. No assurances of working toward equal rights has been made. Its all been excuses and fingerpointing. I'm just paranoid, or belligerent, or divisive. You don't even see that you are equally guilty. Great "America" will take care of it all. The majority of mainstream Christians "aren't going to allow our freedoms to come apart at the seams." (And I really don't care what non-American Christians think...I have a lot more concern for what non-American non-Christians with the bomb think when Dubya proclaims them inferior because they aren't practicing a "real" religion.) Flip on C-Span for a couple weeks. Read the ACLU website on the Patriots Act, and Patriot II. Check out Planned Parenthood and N.O.W. to see the plans for birth control. Read. Think! Now, I'm off to the Secular Lounge permanently. I've been talked at by Christians all my life. Take all the shots you want. You get to have the last word. But first, reread the post about the atheist who was threatened with death. The problem isn't solved just because YOU are "nice" or caused because I'm an "uppity atheist." She (or he) wouldn't be less dead if the trigger was actually pulled by a fanatic.....that's the point.

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