Vorkosigan

[b]From my "eminently forgettable" characterization I exclude but few writers, Harlan Ellison, Norman Spinrad, Philip K. Dick, Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, H.G. Welles and Jules Verne, among a very select group of writers who possess the genuine talent and compassion to use the genre as one way to explore the human condition in the here and now rather than as an escape from the unfortunate facts of reality.

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: IvanK ][/QB][/QUOTE]

How magnanimous of you! We should add Alfred Bester, Arthur Byron Cover, James Blish, H. Beam Piper, Marion Zimmer Bradley, C.S. Lewis, aw heck, just too many to note.....

Vorkosigan

thefugitivesaint

Although i was never a big Heinlein fan i wanted to post a few pages that may help shed light on his political persuasion and attitude:

1.A <a href="http://www.rvt.com/~lucas/heinlein/booklist/tbygcover.html" target="_blank">little known non-fiction work</a> that many should read which elucidates the ignorant of Heinlein's ideas about Democracy. (this link is merely a scanned book cover of one of the books previous prints FYI).

2.<a href="http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/rah/ftp/fedrlsvc.pdf" target="_blank">This</a> link goes into great detail about the over the nature of Heinlein's "Federal Service" in Starship Troopers.

3.And, <a href="http://www.kentaurus.com/troopers.htm" target="_blank">this page</a> is a nifty little essay examining some of the issues surrounding Heinlein's version, Verhoeven's version, and the collision between versions over Starship Troopers.

4.Here is yet <a href="http://home.iccas.com/jimhull/HeinleinAndTroopers.html" target="_blank">another page</a> that address the issue raised of Heinlein being a fasict or not.

5.And, <a href="http://econ161.berkeley.edu/Comments/starship_troopers.html" target="_blank">another addition</a> to the debate.

I'll stop posting now.
-theSaint

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: thefugitivesaint ]</p>

Corwin

From an elderly character....

Read over it again.... who wields the real power in that book? In general it's close to evenly divided between men and women, frequently with the difference going toward women.

GunnerJ

Good advice, Corwin, you might want to take it...

...and this is why! The character who made that statement was nurse Gillian who was responsible for Valentine when he was in the hospital, and ended up being his first love. Look it up.

Were you thinking of Jubal Hershaw when you said this? Sadly (for you; hilarious for me!) this hurts your case. Jubal was one of Heinlein's "self-insertion" characters whose dialogue is clearly ment to lecture the reader on Heinlein's views on a subject, so this would be even worse!

Now, I'm not flat-out saying that Stanger is sexist (although the three secretaries and how they act/are treated may make you wonder). But clearly, it's not an example of gender-enlightened writing by Heinlein, as you seem to suggest.

Corwin

Parts of Stranger seem sexist by our standards today.... News flash... that's like calling James Bond sexist. This was the time in which the book was written.

elwoodblues

Oh, so he's sexist now? He wrote strong, capable, industrious, aggressive, creative, intelligent, confident, sexually self-posessed women long before that became accepted in ANY genre. A damned strong case could be made for Heinlein being a FEMALE sexist (you know what I mean). He asserted many times that women are, on average, smarter, stronger, and generally BETTER than men. He said men and women were different, and that these differences are wonderful and have fueled much of what makes us HUMAN.

If that's sexist, than so am I, and most people I know, to some extent.

Vorkosigan

Thanks for the sites, Saint! They are wonderful! Fuckin' A! I knew Verhoeven hadn't read the fuckin' book.

Vorkosigan

GunnerJ

LOL! Corwin, are you listening to yourself?

So... we go from Stranger being the poster boy for Heinlein's progressive sex politics, and shining beacon of how far he'd come, to "oh, well, he's just a product of his times." Can you get your story straight, Mr. CoolShades?

Bookman

Sexist or no, it is very clear to me from his writing (particularly the work of his later years) that Mr. Heinlein had no understanding of the female psyche or point of view.

Also, I won't castigate him for being a dirty old man, but there you are.

Bookman

Corwin

Did I say he was the poster boy for anything rim? Nope. Words never once crossed my lips. However, over MOST of the book women are portrayed in pretty much the way elwood states. (Gawddammit elwood stop it.)