Kassiana

Toto:
Theist Gal does not seem to be interested in defending her beliefs.

Kass:
I don't mind if someone isn't interested in defending their beliefs as long as that person isn't trying to push those beliefs onto me, so I have no problem with TG becoming Catholic. I am surprised at the level of vitriol expressed against her and for her, though. Sheesh. It's her decision to become whatever she wishes, whether it's a Catholic, Buddhist, or Republican. (shudders) And it's OUR decision how to react TO her decision, whether with approbation, boredom, utter indifference, or flat-out hatred.

BTW for Meta, ManM's statement you quoted SUPPORTED TG's decision.

Typhon

Bzzzzzzzzzt! (peeks under tea-cup, nods, "Yep, he's still there.) Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt!

No, but as usual, you left the substance out of your claims. Boo! That's kinda like offering me a jelly donut without the jelly. I didn't necessarily ask for just a short version, I wanted the intelligent one too. Perhaps it just doesn't exist. (shrug)

Sigh, WHERE have I behaved like a bigot on this thread, let alone found playing in the sandbox. I stand by my rights to call A Theist Gal "silly" as I detailed, in my reasonably medium sized post about her and my conclusions on her own statements. Hell, I don't even like sandboxes, they're full of cat turds and pee stains, ick.

Neither YOU nor A Theist Gal have had any responses to my rational explanation why I find A Theist Gal's gushing testimonial to be so much bunk. Come back when you can bother.

Cheers,

.T.

Brian63

I've only briefly skimmed through some parts of this thread, and I'm curious why so many people are having a tantrum about AtheistGal-->TheistGal converting?

It shouldn't be a big deal to us what people believe is going to happen to them after they die, whether there is a big invisible sky-fairy or not, etc. As long as they're not trying to enforce such beliefs upon others, we should let it be. There is nothing inherently wrong about people becoming more religious.

Metacrock is right: There are a lot of silly Calvinist atheists here.

Brian

Typhon

I can't speak for others, but I for one am not having a tantrum. I'm certainly not having one over what religion A Theist Gal happens to practice, even though I'm not a fan of Catholicism.

The point that I find funny is that A Theist Gal seems to make a big deal out of having "deconverted" from atheism. After reading her own admissions about faith and the details of her brief stint as an atheist in-between a much longer time as a Roman Catholic, if found this unsurprising as she did not seem to have been much of an atheist, more just a Catholic having a short failing of faith, and mostly for reasons that had little to do with reason, logic, or even her own feelings on the matter.

I also, don't think that the actions of some theist firemen on 9/11 is anything but silly, but that's my opinion.

While I always prefer one theist less rather than more, it is hardly a big issue.

.T.

Brian63

Herein lies the trouble. If a person does not believe in God, that's all it takes to make that person an atheist. I am no more or less an atheist than any other atheist here. Suggesting that she is "not much of an atheist" is ambiguous at best and rude at worst.



I agree that it would have been nice if her reasons for converting to Catholicism were more rational then emotional, but she is happier now, so that's cool. She seems to not think any less of atheists than theists (based on the little that I skimmed in her website testimony), so that's all we should hope for from her, IMHO.

Brian

Sephiroth

Which you chalk up as a metaphor I suppose . In case you didn't notice, I changed my opinion after A Theist Gal's first post on this thread. Please, don't stay so far behind the times as Christians are wont to do .

[ June 29, 2002: Message edited by: Sephiroth ]</p>

Mad Kally

Who is having a tantrum? I don't give a shit what she believes. Hell, I don't even know her. I'm just enjoying grumpy's reactions. (such big words)

Typhon

You may be correct, and certainly at least see you point Brian, but again, I addressed this in a longer post, earlier in the thread.

I don't think my use of the phrase here, is particularly ambiguous, nor is it meant as rudeness.

A Theist Gal was Roman Catholic for seven years prior to her brief time as an atheist. By her own admission, she dropped her active belief for reasons that to me, do not suggest a serious or heartfelt change in her belief about god:

I could be mistaken, but this is all I have to go off of, her own words on the matter. If she had a mid-life crisis and was drawn away from religion, but felt she wasn't truly following what she "really believed," I feel justified saying that she wasn't much of an atheist by MY definition.

I do not dispute that she could have been an atheist by definition or otherwise. If she held no belief in god or gods during this period, then she would indeed be one, regardless of whether she made this choice on her own, or was drawn into it as she says by other factors.

I personally suspect that this is not the case, and that the strong hold that her seven years of faith had on her, never fully left. She seems to state this in her posts here and on her website.

Finally, my other point is that I disagree with her opening "essay" or testimonial of her re-conversion on her website. It doesn't seem like a convincing reason to me, to come to the conclusion that a god exists, and that he or she is the Roman Catholic god of the Bible, based on the events she describes surrounding 9/11.

Certainly she states this is just what started her back on the road to re-conversion, but even as that, it seems, well just a pointless gush about an emotional appeal which I don't find much value in.

Anyway, I'm getting off subject here. All I have commented on is that I find A Theist Gal's re-conversion not surprising based on the details she has provided. Also, I am highly suspect that she truly lost her attachment to either her faith or the magical thinking it embraces. That's it, period.

I haven't seen enough of her arguments here or elsewhere to make any other judgment calls about her or her beliefs. I chose not to look at her apologetics about the sexual abuse committed by Catholic priests and covered up for years by the Catholic Church originally, because I suspected it would only fill me with distain and revulsion. I just did now, and found it to be simply naive and avoiding the major issues of the problem, some of which are more eloquently described <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000417" target="_blank">here</a>.

.T.

Baalthazaq

This post is dedicated to certain participants of this thread, not all of them. If you're offended by the following, chances are I'm talking to you.

If you don't think it applies to you, it probably doesn't. Sit back, relax. Chances are I think you rule. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />


..
I'm tired of the "real atheist" debates.

OF COURSE there are atheists which convert every religion on earth. This is according to your own logic.

If we presume religion only exists due to indoctrination/social pressure. At birth there must only be atheists. (Atheists have no evidence to suggest there is no God, otherwise I'd be allowed to ask you to prove it to me. The statement is therefore that there is no evidence for us to believe in one. A baby has no evidence to suggest a deity exists.)

So here's a newsflash: EVERY religious person on earth, including the Pope, Ayatollah Khomeini, George Bush, Jerry Falwell, the Dalai Lama, were ALL atheists, according to that logic.

Why are you then so surprised when the same so called indoctrination occurs in adults?

You can claim that she wasn't a REAL atheist. You can always claim people weren't REAL atheists. After all, there is a very set definition of atheist which includes freethought, a degree in one of the major sciences, and the innate ability to apply logic perfectly. Yes stupidity to an Atheist is like a foreskin to a Jew. It just comes off on conversion.

You can claim she wasn't YOUR idea of the perfect atheist. Go ahead, but then again alot of you here are far from behaving like the perfect (logical, tolerant) atheists.

1) She did NOT put up the website here herself.
She is not preaching, she is not evangelising. The site is there for whoever wishes to read it, she is certainly not cramming it down your throats.

2) She has not made any statements that suggest you should convert. Merely that she has, and she has given PERSONAL reasons for doing so. Illogical or not.

These reasons need not require logical consistency. When she dies, she may die happier because she feels she is going to heaven, therefore it is beneficial to believe in a diety for her.

It may cause her to be more moral, to have her think that a deity of some sort look over her shoulder 24/7.

It is therefore, if the two above statements are true, LOGICAL that she should believe in a deity because it makes her happier, the same way it is logical for me to get chocolate icecream because I like it. (I may not be hungry, I may not need it, it may be unhealthy, but the choice is not an illogical one because it improves my quality of life in the way I wish it to.)

This has no bearing on the said Deity's existance, but that she SHOULD believe is a logical decision if she bases it on the quality of life she leads as an atheist, vs a theist.

3) If her decision was illogical, you cannot simultaneously tell her she needs to stop this stupidity, start making rational decisions, then CALL HER NAMES TO CHANGE HER MIND. THAT IS NOT LOGICAL.

Be logical! Now: Disbelieve in Christ as Lord and saviour because if you do you smell!
***************************************
What good is dedicating a forum to logical debate with regards religion, PREACHING the use of logic to justify beliefs, and then having a ton and a half of people sit there and use Ad Hominems and non-sequiturs to take down someone else's?

More than anything, it's a shame. I'm not surprised you don't get so many Eternals anymore. There's no need for trolls. You can do it all by yourselves.

Kally, you in particular I'm surprised at after you sat and talked to me about acting like "Stereotypical Atheists".

Mad Kally

You're right Baal. I hate it when atheists pick on Tricia.