tronvillain

Laurentius:
Of course, that completely avoids answering my question. What criteria do you employ to judge yourself?

I can find innumerable examples of people being dishonourable around me? Well, I am probably not honourable in any traditional sense, but my immediate family seem quite honourable by any standard I can think of. To tell the truth, I don't think I can come up with innumerable examples from around me.

Laurentius

AVE


tronvillain

Reviewing:

<Laurentius> The other day it occurred to me that in general people no longer care about honor. Does honor matter in one’s private life any more? No so much, I think. Or am I wrong?

<tronvillain> We live in a society where virtually everyone you meet is a stranger, and where almost no one will hear about your conduct. What incentive is there for civility or honour then? None. If reputation does not generally matter, attempting to foster a good reputation is generally pointless.

<Laurentius> Yes, that was my feeling too, although...

<tronvillain> In smaller communities (neighborhoods, businesses, families, friends, etc.) "honour" will probably always be important, though the form it takes may change. Of course, even with strangers honour may be a good idea, since there may be direct or future reciprocation, links to your networks, or potential future members of your networks.

<Laurentius> You know, I happen to be familiar with the Korean culture. South Korea takes in a quite small territory but their population is of about 50 million people, which by no means makes it a small community. Koreans abhore compromises, and for them things are either white or black. Honor plays such an important role that in extreme cases people would rather commit suicide than live in dishonor. Conclusion: larger communities can live by moral codes within which honor to remain undistorted. Sometimes I wish I could live in such community because here, in my own native land, I look around and I find it hard to identify a man of honor/integrity.

<tronvillain> Your friends and family are dishonourable and without integrity?


<Laurentius> I wouldn't discuss my family and friends...

<tronvillain> I would like to know exactly that criteria you are using to judge people.

<Laurentius> I use the same criteria I employ to judge myself.

<tronvillain> Of course, that completely avoids answering my question.

<Laurentius> No, it doesn't, at least not completely. It infers that when judging people I don't place myself above them.

<tronvillain> What criteria do you employ to judge yourself?

<Laurentius> Well, that's a tough question, one of the most philosophical questions I could ever answer - it reminds me of the classical "know yourself". Well, I know myself, but, unfortunately, I would need to elaborate real carefully on such a question, about the criteria I use to judge myself. Besides, this kind of exceeds the scope of the question I addressed initially, you know, about my feeling that people no longer care about honor as strongly as they used to. It is a question that has occurred to me because the people I come accross in general indulge in inconsistencies that I don't find honorable. This may sound a bit too harsh. However, I'm sure that you yourself can find innumerable such examples around you too, so many that you've probably got used to them to such an extent that you may have overlooked them, thinking them just the normal state of affairs.

<tronvillain> I can find innumerable examples of people being dishonourable around me? Well, I am probably not honourable in any traditional sense, but my immediate family seem quite honourable by any standard I can think of. To tell the truth, I don't think I can come up with innumerable examples from around me.

<Laurentius> Well, this is a way of saying that indeed I am wrong. I respect your opinion and express my admiration for the enviable environment you've got there.


AVE

Laurentius

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echidna

Good idea with the poem, I've always liked it.
One of my wife's favorites too.

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Laurentius

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abe smith

<Laurentius> The other day it occurred to me that in general people no longer care about honor. Does honor matter in one’s private life any more? No so much, I think. Or am I wrong?

<abe smith> umm. "Honor", as one of those unreal manmade concepts, is about what *Other People* think, innit?

<Laurentius> Yep.

<abe smith> ... I was about to observe that caring what *Other People* think is a pretty-petty criterion for deciding how [personally] to choose to behave [as a human being].

<Laurentius> Not so petty, I think, since humanity in humans is socially conditioned.

<abe smith> But, ummm....I guess I admit / KNOW, that "the soul [sic] selects her [sic] own society".

<Laurentius> This is the advantage of the modern man: he/she can choose the community to belong to.

<abe smith> Although I used to deny that I gave a shit about what *Other People* think, probably nowadays I'm willing to admit the existence of my [interior] "Board", made-up of a dozen or so individuals {as the Army refers to people} whom I have chosen as role-models and arbiters/judges; [Most of them indeed are dead; and perhaps, as I never knew most of those personally, they may be private fictions of my own.] and to whom, [the "Board"] I refer & consult, even not-too-consciously, about matters that matter to me....

<Laurentius> This reminds me of the conversations with Christians in which I was asked: “So, if there is no God, how do you know what is right and wrong, and how can you tell you are doing a good or a bad deed?”, and I’d say something like: “There’s a moral faculty in everyone. I can discern…”; and they: “You’re attempting to substitute God!”

<abe smith> Anyone else here at INFIDELS have a similar interiorized um, values-setting group/Board?

<Laurentius> Everyone does. Despite its interiority, the inner moral standard is shaped by the society. Values and principles imposed by the community and meant to coerce the young individual into becoming a social being are gradually assimilated and integrated into his/her personality, rendering these values and principles his/her own moral guides. Now, the individual will make a selection, though, that is he/she will select the community he/she is willing (militantly or not) to belong to (family, neighborhood, gang, friends, class, workteam, city, nation, sect, mankind), and he/she will also select the principles by which to live so that he/she can be considered a worthy and reliable member.

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Laurentius

AVE

An example, you say... Well, hypocrites, thieves, crooks and the kind are good examples of people for whom honor does not matter.

There are many college students who cheat when they take their exams. Some do it occasionally, while for others it has become a quite common practice. The latter ones even brag about it as if they were endowed with superior life skills enabling them not to turn into those disgusting, horrid "nerds". Now, I cheated myself too in highschool, quite a lot, which sometimes I find amusing and other times dishonorable.

I will always find dishonorable people claiming the possession of qualities and qualifications that they actually lack, and attempting to obtain various advantages by this claim.

AVE

philechat

Do you mean some sort of "bad faith" that is found in many people in our society? I mean, a dishonorable act implies a human tendency to compromise to the existing community without thinking over its values?

I think people, for the sake of their material and social gains, would always engage in bad faith performance. It stems from weakness and a lack of will power, and an absence of a personal sense of identity. When they saw the value of the community conflicting with their own, they pretended to adhere to its values instead of actively changing it.

People often rationalize their actions away using the existing community code, to avoid criticism from the community. Such bad faith performance was not exclusively a modern trait, but exists in less "civilized" communities as well; it was often useful for it avoids unnecessary conflicts with the community (which might lead to punishments and undesirable consequences) and enhances a person's status.

Deception and spying were also useful to many communities especially in difficult times. Warfares especially prize those who could conquer the enemies using the least resourses--the avoidence of direct confrontation, the "outwitting" of the other side, etc.

The only way to avoid bad faith might be to consider oneself free in all situations. That means, knowing one's own intention of acting a certain way, knowing one is deceiving another, and that one is completely responsible for such actions.

Self-awareness is the key here, and it is the only quality I consider honorable.

Laurentius

AVE


Faking following social rules is quite normal in children, but it is considered anti-social behavior in grown-ups. In everyone there is a period of rejection and rebelion, but once one ripens, one will voluntarily adhere to a group. Promoting within the group by deception is immature, immoral and dishonorable.


It's okay to cheat and spy on other social groups, while deceiting the members of one's own community is not.


AVE


[ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: Laurentius ]</p>

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

I have a strong personal code of honor. Anyone who tempts me from it soon shall see the folley of their ways.

Laurentius

AVE


I bet you do.

BTW, last Sunday I was switching channels when I came across that program with the video mass, or something, and there was a preacher there repeatedely emphasizing that following God's way is a question of honor. Well, what do you know...

AVE

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Laurentius ]</p>