Freethought & Rationalism Archive

theophilus · 03-14-2003, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden
I see. So unbelievers whose non-belief is due to the free exercise of their gift of reason and who diligently sought what they ultimately were unable to find will not be punished with eternal hellfire for their honest lack of belief?

You're quite correct. I am both emotionally and intellectually opposed to slavery, whatever its source.

Bill. Thanks for joining us.
Of course, you'll have to acknowledge that your opposition cannot be justified on a materialistic worldview; matter is neither good or evil.
I know you've repudiated a purely naturalistic/materialistic worldview, but you've never explained your position if it's not theistic.

It's always puzzled me that most if not all people would agree that slavery is evil, yet some will still support and defend a worldview that embraces it.

We'll, again, popularity of a belief doesn't make it true, does it. Some, who oppose evil, will subscribe to a worldview which makes morality (as a transcendent absolute) impossible. None of us live perfectly consistent with their worldview.

Let me make it clear that by "worldview", I don't mean "Christianity" per se. I'm referring to those religious worldviews (including CP & fundamentalist versions of Christianity and Islam) that do explicitly view us as "god's property" and see our existence as due only to "his mercy." There are certainly Christians who deny that this is the case. It is absolutely possible to acknowledge the "creator/creature" distinction, recognizing a qualitative difference between God and Man, and yet hold that God created Man as capable of being his moral equal. That is, as capable of being a moral agent as he is.

God is self-existent, man's existence is contingent. God's "morality" is a manifestation of his nature; man's morality is not intrensic, it is measured by his obedience (or lack thereof) to God's law.

It seems to me that to suppose anything less of God is to doom him to the role of petty tyrant, or some kind of psychopathic creature with severe confidence & self-esteem issues.

We'll you're just anthropromorphising God (a favorite criticism of Christians by atheists). God does whatever he does for his own purposes which are consistent with his perfection. God can "kill" because he is the righteous judge and men are guilty through sin. Men cannot kill (murder) because they are all alike sinners. Killing in self-defense or as judgement against lawbreaking is a reflection of God's judgement and must be done on his authority.

If by "out there" you mean "in the sky" or "outer space" as the Bible clearly indicates, then I am, in fact, quite convinced that there's no god there.

I don't know what this was referring to, so please explain and please specify whee the Bible "clearly indicates" this.

If however you mean "in existence", then you're right, I'm not convinced. Neither do I see any evidence to suggest that the existence of a being that I would describe as "god" is likely, but I certainly don't deny that it is possible.

Regards,

Bil Snedden

There is and can be no such evidence because God does not subject himself to the fallible, finite judgement of sinful men to confirm or deny his existence. He has given sufficient evidence through his creation and in his word to leave all men without excuse for not acknowledging him.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 03-14-2003, 12:51 PM

Bill Snedden,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to your post.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden
I see. So unbelievers whose non-belief is due to the free exercise of their gift of reason and who diligently sought what they ultimately were unable to find will not be punished with eternal hellfire for their honest lack of belief?

Correct. There is no 'unable to find' my friend.

Because...

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Snedden

If by "out there" you mean "in the sky" or "outer space" as the Bible clearly indicates, then I am, in fact, quite convinced that there's no god there.

Ok. Then why would you be upset?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Hawkingfan · 03-14-2003, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas
Just a heads up...the post said 'not forget sin'. Because sacrifice was emotionally heavy and difficult, time-consuming and costly...man would not forget why he was there. Better yet...man would be less inclined to sin in the future knowing what he would have to go through to atone for it.

And this is supposed to justify human sacrifice? OK...

Quote:

What is 'much worse'?[/B]

What's worse, your normal everyday sin, or KILLING AN INNOCENT HUMAN BEING?

Quote:

Sure. You mean like repenting? This is exactly what sacrifice encouraged.[/B]

Yeah, "repenting". But how about giving all your possessions to the poor instead of killing an innocent person?

Hawkingfan · 03-14-2003, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas
Show me a sinless person...and I'll show you an 'inconsistency'.

No, we (as the descendants of Adam) cannot be held responsible for his sin and then god gives a law stating not to hold descendants responsible for their ancestor's sin.

Mageth · 03-14-2003, 01:13 PM

Show me a sinless person...and I'll show you an 'inconsistency'.

Go visit the maternity ward at your local hospital and view the newborns.

theophilus · 03-14-2003, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan
Theo,

It is completely idiotic to even think about the "cause of death". I don't want to live forever. Maybe you do. I'm really happy for you.

I am EXTREMELY grateful to know that some day my life will end.

And how could you possible know that?

Perhaps you'll be the beginning of a new more highly evolved lifeform.

theophilus · 03-14-2003, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Show me a sinless person...and I'll show you an 'inconsistency'.

Go visit the maternity ward at your local hospital and view the newborns.

And who, exactly, are you to pass on the guilt or innocence of anyone in God's judgement?

theophilus · 03-14-2003, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan
No, we (as the descendants of Adam) cannot be held responsible for his sin and then god gives a law stating not to hold descendants responsible for their ancestor's sin.

"'Sin passed to all men because all sin." "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

theophilus · 03-14-2003, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan
Like hell it is.

No, actually, hell is not in your head. It is a very real place of punishment.

What you meant to say is "Like hell it is, unless the Bible is true."

theophilus · 03-14-2003, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawkingfan
That's funny.

DT 24:16, 2KI 14:6, 2CH 25:4, EZ 18:20 Children are not to suffer for their parent's sins.

Hmm? Can someone say "inconsistency"?

I can. It is an INCONSISTENCY for atheists to care about inconsistency (wow, I said it twice), since their materialistic worldview neither precludes inconsistencies (three times!) nor gives a rip if they occur.

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03-14-2003, 01:13 PM	#145
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Show me a sinless person...and I'll show you an 'inconsistency'. Go visit the maternity ward at your local hospital and view the newborns.

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