Toto

Tercel - you make it sound like you appreciate any reasonable-sounding argument for God, and will do anything you can to save some scrap of belief. (It is really frightening to me that anyone could be impressed by Nomad. Perhaps your youth explains it, or that you have not actually taken enough classes in history or the humanities.)

But I am impressed that you are rolling your own brand of Christianity. Perhaps there is hope.

So now you posit a God who is not all-powerful, just powerful enough. How do you distinguish this god from a space alien?

daemon

I haven't read anything about atonement theories, and it wasn't a topic that was ever brought up. I am uncertain whether any specific theory has been accepted by the RC Church as a definitive answer. However, I will say that, from my reading of an overview of Anselm's satisfaction theory, I think it unlikely that it is highly accepted. If it is, it is not communicated much to the faithful.

Tercel

I do appreciate any reasonable-sounding argument for God, yes, just as I appreciate reasonable sounding arguments in general.

Toto... how to put this mildly?... Nomad could beat you in an argument if he was tied up and blindfolded.
That is not to say I agree with everything he says: I don't, I think he gets things wrong and makes mistakes sometimes. When he discusses Christian doctrine I sometimes roll my eyes at some of the things he says that I disagree with. But I still respect his learning, intelligence, and his abilities to draw sound conclusions from the evidence.
Whereas for you... :b
I think you are so extremely biased you would accept any argument as long as its conclusions agreed with your position.
If I'm desperately trying to save some scrap of faith here then I'm not showing it very well when I critique bad arguments by other Christians. But have you ever considered even the most radical and extreme atheist writings worth criticising?... Actually, as I recall it, you spend your time reading and repeating such writings here...
But no doubt my youth is greatly hurting my ability to recognise your greatness...

Actually, I don't think I am: The more I learn about the Orthodox Church, the more I am liking what I see.

A space alien would be a being who -like us- is dependent upon this space-time universe to live. God is the creator of this universe.

Tercel

It's more commonly called "the Word of God" around here!
Why else call it that if not to remind people?

Tercel

Hey ManM, thanks for the link. It reminds me again just why I like the Orthodox Church. If this keeps up, I'll probably be an Orthodox believer before the year is out. Are you Orthodox yourself?

Your right that the link is rather biased though...
As far as your point goes, as Daemon has pointed out its not exactly clear cut on who's teaching what. The Orthodox accuse the Catholics of teaching something, and the Catholics deny they are teaching it etc... it's one big mess I think.

Toto

Tercel - I do not claim to be a great debater. In fact, I am well aware of my limitations - I can't take Christianity seriously enough to really do a good job debating a Christian. But I know sophistry and logical deficiency when I see it, and I saw it immediately and continuously in Nomad's posts. He produced a smooth sounding argument, but he distorted facts and drew unwarranted conclusions all the time. You seem to have been taken in by the appearance of rationality, or perhaps by the volume of detail that he threw in, but there is no substance behind it.

But don't let me discourage you from converting to the Orthodox Church. You could do a lot worse.

ManM

Tercel,
Yes, I am Orthodox. Guilty as charged!

Tercel

I also rate my abilities to spot such. Strangely, I find such significantly more present in your posts than Nomad's.

Also, given your previous statement,
makes me less inclined to trust your ability to judge anything. Even if my youth and inexperience was clouding my judgement, it hardly explains why people like Bede and Peter Kirby think a lot of Nomad. IIRC Bede said Nomad "could get a masters before breakfast and polish off a PHD before lunch", while Peter Kirby invited Nomad to XTalk. But no doubt you don't think much of Bede and Peter Kirby either...

Right... That would of course be why he's always substantiating his points with quotes from the recognised top scholars in the field. But then, no doubt you think Doherty, Price, Freke, Gandy etc are the top dogs...

Don't worry: I wouldn't dream of taking your opinions seriously anyway...

[ June 29, 2002: Message edited by: Tercel ]</p>

Tercel

Cool!

Edited to add: Are there any specific books you would like particularly recommend about Orthodoxy? (Otherwise I'll just read what I can get my hands on easily)

[ June 29, 2002: Message edited by: Tercel ]</p>

ManM

Tercel,
For an introduction I would suggest "The Faith" by Clark Carlton and "The Orthodox Church" by Kallistos Ware. There are also pieces of books written by Heirotheos <a href="http://www.pelagia.org/htm/" target="_blank">at this site.</a> For a more demanding book you could try reading "Unseen Warfare" revised by Theophan the Recluse or "The Ladder of Divine Ascent" by St. John Climacus. If you would prefer a more philosophical approach I would suggest "The Deification of Man" by Mantzaridis, "Being As Communion" by Zizioulas or something by Yannaras ("Elements of Faith", or "Freedom of Morality"). I haven't read the books by Zizioulas and Yannaras, but those are the next ones on my list. Anyway, I would suggest Ware's book first and foremost as it provides a good all around introduction and explanation of the Orthodox Church. Hopefully that will be enough to give you a good start!