tronvillain

Corwin:
Sure, if homeopathy wishes to abandon its fundamental principles ("like cures like" and "the law of infinitesimals") and start using treatment that have a chance of working, fine. Of course, that would make them no different than conventional medicine, and they should be held to the same standards.

tronvillain

Corwin:
No, they're not. Homeopaths use dilutions which essentially ensure that none of the "remedy" remains, but claim that the dilution makes it more effective.

As for smallpox, initial vaccination was done with cowpox, not a diluted solution of smallpox. Before that, variolation was used to transer smallpox from a person with a mild form of smallpox, but this resulted in quite a few deaths.

Corwin

Innoculation itself causes a fair number of deaths. That's why we don't do it anymore... now that we've discovered vaccination. (Innoculations are only done for diseases we haven't discovered an actual vaccine for.)

YOU claim that homeopaths dilute their medications to the point where there isn't any of the cure left. I haven't heard homeopaths claim that.

An example.... how do you become immune to botula toxin?

Valmorian

<a href="http://www.ncahf.org/pp/homeop.html" target="_blank">http://www.ncahf.org/pp/homeop.html</a>

Particularly this section:

"Hahnemann's Law of Infinitesimals holds that the smaller the dose of a medication, the more powerful will be its healing effects. He taught that substances could be potentized (i.e., their "immaterial and spiritual powers" released to make active substances more active, and inactive substances active). The process of potentizing involved the sequential dilution of remedial agents by succussion in which initial mixtures would be shaken at least 40 times, nine parts dumped, and nine parts of solvent added and shaken again. This process was repeated as many times as desired. Tapping on a leather pad or the heel of the hand was alleged to double the dilution-a notion that contradicts the laws of physics. Remedies are diluted to powers of ten and labeled with combinations of Arabic and Roman numerals (e.g., 3X= 1/1000, 4X= 1/10,000, 3C or 6X= 1/1,000,000, etc.). The fact that 19th-Century homeopathic remedies were dilute placebos made them preferable to the harsh concoctions being applied by the humoral practitioners.

According to the laws of chemistry, there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether. This limit, called Avogadro's number (6.023 x 10-23) corresponds to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X (1 part in 1024). At this dilution there is less than a 50% chance that even one molecule of active material remains. Hahnemann himself realized that there was virtually no chance that any of the original substance remained at such high dilution, but explained it away in metaphysical terms. In addition to being contradicted by common sense, homeopathy's Law of Infinitesimals is invalidated by pharmaceutical dose-response studies."


It is clear that homeopathy indicates that smaller doses increase potency. Every medication taken today invalidates this. If I take 1 aspirin, I should end up with a stronger reaction than if I take 2?

DRFseven

That's the beauty of sumatriptan; it's not a pain-killer; there are no side-effects I can notice! It treats the receptor sites that give rise to the vascular changes that cause all the migraine symptoms - pain, disorientation, aura, nausea, as well as sensitivity to light and sound. As an added bonus, it can be taken at any time during a migraine attack and will abort it, leaving you clear-headed and not doped up at all.

For more information, read about <a href="http://www.meds.com/conrad/aash/gutterman.html" target="_blank">Imitrex (sumatriptan)</a> here: Imitrex is available as in self-injection units (faster relief), tablet, and nasal spray form. I start getting a migraine (from a sharp rise in barometric pressure) about once every two months, so I keep two Imitrex tablets with me at all times, just in case. Let me tell you, they changed my life; my migraines used to last three days and it was three days of unbelievable torment, where I couldn't work or do anything. Nothing short of knocking me out for a couple of days ever worked and, of course, I couldn't work that way, either. Imitrex is wonderful because it's not a narcotic; just makes you normal fast.

Someone7

I'm not sure. Let me readjust my tin-foil hat, I think some pesky aliens are blocking my normal thought patterns, causing my strange behavior.

Corwin

Yes, and Chiro originally got into things like biomagnetism and energy points.

Physics originally held that the universe was filled with aether.

Chemistry originally only recognized four elements.

Republicans used to be the more progressive political party in the United States.

Psychiatrists used to perscribe cocaine.

Times change, knowledge increases. Get over it.

Coragyps

And I think our knowledge has indeed increased in the two centuries since Hahneman came up with his brand of medicine.

Corwin

Our knowledge of anatomy has changed a lot since people started practicing surgery.... with about a 5% survival rate.

Should we brush that off too?

Our knowledge of biology has increased since Genesis and Leviticus... should we brush off zoology, botany, and microbiology?

tronvillain

Corwin, I'll say it again:
All standard homeopathic are diluted past the dilution limit (they list the dilution and it's a simple calculation), often ridiculously so. Even if that weren't the case, there is often virtually no evidence that the undiluted substance would have the effect claimed. As for chiropractic, it is still riddled with quackery and fraud, so don't act as if it's all in the past.

Oh, and are you going to admit that you were wrong about smallpox? The smallpox vaccine has never contained the smallpox virus.