Soma

An uncaused event by its very nature would be eternal, which those events are not. They are being caused. Just because we can't identify the cause does not mean they lack one.

Soma

A scientific explanation is not necessary. If those events are not caused, then they would persist eternally, which they obviously do not.

Jinto

Okay. Let's review:

You assert: all uncaused events are eternal.
I counter with examples of uncaused events which are not eternal.
You say: but they can't be uncaused events because they are not eternal.

Is it just me, or do I smell a "No true scotsman" fallacy?

Lobstrosity

I personally feel that the notion of a "greatest possible being" is a bit silly. In fact, in my mind it's just as silly as the notion of the "greatest possible song." It's subjective. There is no absolute "greatest" when referring to a being just like there is no absolute "greatest" when referring to art.

Or another example: what about the greatest possible woman? Do you think any two men would agree on the description of who would fit that bill? One would want an atheletic red-head with a fiery temperment. Another might want a demure brunette with big...personalities.

As an illustration of the subjective nature of things, how would you reconcile mercy with justice in a "greatest" possible being? Different people will have different opinions as to which mix is the best. Do you go the "eye for an eye" route? Do you go the "turn the other cheek" route? Which one is greatest? The two attributes are in subjective conflict with each other and yet you're looking for an objective absolute maximum. What about the fact that your GPB knows what will happen at every instant in time? How does a being with such knowledge apply justice? Does he allow the crime to be commited before punishing it or can he use his knowledge of what will happen to just punish crimes beforehand? Which is more just? One gives the person a chance to change (even though God already knows for a fact he won't) whereas the other prevents the crime from happening in the first place and thus protects innocent people from harm. A GPB is full of contradictions and will never satisfy any objective notion of "greatest."

xian

The definition can have an actual contradiction. Unless you are equating actual to exist- which in that case I agree. Anything that is defined as being logically contradictory cannot possibly exist.

yup. if you define the IPU like this, it is no longer contradictory. It is still infinitely inferior to the GPB, however.


ahhh, I disagree completely.

you cannot have another deity with the same attributes. Logical neccessity mutually excludes two GPB's from existing. There can only be one.
Lets see, the topic of this forum= "What does the word "God" mean? Does a god exist? What are the arguments for and against? What does the evidence say?"

so now your opinion on these matters is relevant and mine is not?

How cordial of you.


the problem of evil is one that makes your atheist subjective definition of your proposed J-C God a logical contradiction.

And if talking about God is so irrelevant, then why dont you just scoot along and post in another forum?

I'm going to continue to post my opinions regarding this subject.

And

they

are

relevant.

Philosoft

Nevertheless, I would like to pursue this further. Again, would you be open to a new topic in Science & Skepticism?

Soma

Uncaused events must be eternal. The examples provided are NOT uncaused events. Their temporal nature reduces them to caused events.

Lobstrosity

It's not that science can't identify the cause, it's that science has actually empirically demonstrated that there is no cause. I know this might not sit well with you emotionally, but emotions are no basis for logical reasoning. This is why you'd do better to take these ideas to the Science forum such that people might help you understand what we already know about the true nature of the universe in which we live.

This is faulty reasoning. It has no logical backing. You're trying to use intuition in a way that's not valid.

Jinto

I'll take an alien bluenette (sic), thanks.

Soma

I'm not a scientist, so I can't offer much...