Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Corwin · 03-01-2002, 04:03 PM

Nope. Vitrification works better, but freezing also works. There's more damage with LN freezing, but any such damage can be repaired with the proper technology.

I'll ask again: With the ability to repair the body on the cellular level, (possible with nanotechnology) exactly what would stop us from reviving frozen cadavers? For that matter what would stop us from having an effectively unlimited life expectancy? (Barring accident...)

Francois Tremblay · 03-01-2002, 05:19 PM

Well, it all hinges on one's definition of "accident", now does it ? There is such a point where accidents could be so common as to make "eternal life" a bad deal.

Corwin · 03-01-2002, 05:57 PM

Live long enough and odds are you're going to have a fatal accident. There's a billion to one chance that you'll be hit by a meteor strike....

Live a billion years? Odds are it's probably gonna happen.

crocodile deathroll · 03-04-2002, 03:18 AM

It is asked on this page. Is cryonics a fraud or con game? A con game it is, they are selling a product to people that they claim gives the hope for revivication some time in the future. But as for a fraud game! well it would be if they were not sticking to their protocol and their main promise is to keep you frozen. That is going to be a pretty hard ask in California as it would of been more satisfactory if Alcor had just simply stored the cadavers under the permafrost in the north of Alaska so if there happened to be a major civilization and its consequent power breakdowns centuries into the future then the cadaver would still remain frozen and not the remains of a long thawed out dig that some future archeologists to investigate. At least if it was buried deep inside a rock in Antarctica then at least it will remain frozen long after our civilization has passed on, and there will be no fraud investigators to answer to when there is a great melt of the ice caps millions of years onto the future.
And what if the methods they use to preserve people 500 years into the future are so much more advanced then it makes Alcor look like Egyptian mummy makers.
If feel all the freezing process will do is halt bacterial growth in the cadaver and preserve the proteins (perhaps for some future cannibal ritual). You may after all those millennia in the freezer be quite safe for Californian cannibals to eat you. You may of also died of a very rare an unknown disease and it will be a great help in future scientific research to know how that virus or bacteria that killed you has evolved over the years. Alcor may at some time in the future have a place as an epidemiologist's gold mine and long after the HIV and ebola viruses have been defeated epidemiologists will have valuable information frozen in time of those diseases and how they evolve over the centuries.
See <a href="http://www.baskeptics.org/siano.htm" target="_blank"> CRYONICS by Brian Siano </a>

Corwin · 03-04-2002, 07:17 AM

Now that's just a tad bit deceptive, isn't it? You aren't quoting the entire 'review,' you're just quoting the part that supports your argument.

What exactly is the problem here? You still dance around the main question. Assuming the development of mature nanotechnology, (this is happening, like it or not) what exactly is there to stop this from working?

Liedts · 03-04-2002, 08:35 AM

After what just happened in the Tri-state crematorium, one might wonder what could happen in a cryogenics storage.
I mean, the incentive for not doing this properly is higher than in a crematorium, and with the passing of time, when all relatives of the person in storage have disappeared, the temptation will increase.

Corwin · 03-04-2002, 08:50 AM

Except that in this case, the people running the facility are also members and are also counting on being revived. There's also a lot more money involved, which makes the penalties for breach of contract a LOT more severe...

crocodile deathroll · 03-04-2002, 01:48 PM

Now how would those nanorobots know how neurons were configured before they were frozen. They may equally as likely restore them to the configuration of neurons of George Washington neurons before he died and not your's in that case it would be reviving George Washington and not you. I feel either way, the task would be extremely improbable.

Quote:

Originally posted by Corwin:
<strong>Now that's just a tad bit deceptive, isn't it? You aren't quoting the entire 'review,' you're just quoting the part that supports your argument.

What exactly is the problem here? You still dance around the main question. Assuming the development of mature nanotechnology, (this is happening, like it or not) what exactly is there to stop this from working?</strong>

Corwin · 03-04-2002, 01:58 PM

Well the point of freezing is to preserve the basic cellular structure as much as possible... remember?

Ipecac · 03-04-2002, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crocodile deathroll:
<strong>Now how would those nanorobots know how neurons were configured before they were frozen. They may equally as likely restore them to the configuration of neurons of George Washington neurons before he died and not your's in that case it would be reviving George Washington and not you. I feel either way, the task would be extremely improbable.
</strong>

Yes, people thought the same thing about space flight and about almost every other major technological advance when it was speculated about prior to its accomplishment. Communicators! Ridiculous! Laser beams, Pure fantasy!

The fact remains that computers continue to advance and at some point it will not be impossible for a computer to scan a vitrified or even a frozen brain and determine what its pre frozen state was.

Archeologists do this now on a small scale with pieces of artifacts. Geologists do this with contenental drift, etc...

Cac!

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03-01-2002, 04:03 PM	#21
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Nope. Vitrification works better, but freezing also works. There's more damage with LN freezing, but any such damage can be repaired with the proper technology. I'll ask again: With the ability to repair the body on the cellular level, (possible with nanotechnology) exactly what would stop us from reviving frozen cadavers? For that matter what would stop us from having an effectively unlimited life expectancy? (Barring accident...)

03-01-2002, 05:19 PM	#22
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	Well, it all hinges on one's definition of "accident", now does it ? There is such a point where accidents could be so common as to make "eternal life" a bad deal.

03-01-2002, 05:57 PM	#23
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Live long enough and odds are you're going to have a fatal accident. There's a billion to one chance that you'll be hit by a meteor strike.... Live a billion years? Odds are it's probably gonna happen.

03-04-2002, 03:18 AM	#24
crocodile deathroll Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 1,466	It is asked on this page. Is cryonics a fraud or con game? A con game it is, they are selling a product to people that they claim gives the hope for revivication some time in the future. But as for a fraud game! well it would be if they were not sticking to their protocol and their main promise is to keep you frozen. That is going to be a pretty hard ask in California as it would of been more satisfactory if Alcor had just simply stored the cadavers under the permafrost in the north of Alaska so if there happened to be a major civilization and its consequent power breakdowns centuries into the future then the cadaver would still remain frozen and not the remains of a long thawed out dig that some future archeologists to investigate. At least if it was buried deep inside a rock in Antarctica then at least it will remain frozen long after our civilization has passed on, and there will be no fraud investigators to answer to when there is a great melt of the ice caps millions of years onto the future. And what if the methods they use to preserve people 500 years into the future are so much more advanced then it makes Alcor look like Egyptian mummy makers. If feel all the freezing process will do is halt bacterial growth in the cadaver and preserve the proteins (perhaps for some future cannibal ritual). You may after all those millennia in the freezer be quite safe for Californian cannibals to eat you. You may of also died of a very rare an unknown disease and it will be a great help in future scientific research to know how that virus or bacteria that killed you has evolved over the years. Alcor may at some time in the future have a place as an epidemiologist's gold mine and long after the HIV and ebola viruses have been defeated epidemiologists will have valuable information frozen in time of those diseases and how they evolve over the centuries. See <a href="http://www.baskeptics.org/siano.htm" target="_blank"> CRYONICS by Brian Siano </a>

03-04-2002, 07:17 AM	#25
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Now that's just a tad bit deceptive, isn't it? You aren't quoting the entire 'review,' you're just quoting the part that supports your argument. What exactly is the problem here? You still dance around the main question. Assuming the development of mature nanotechnology, (this is happening, like it or not) what exactly is there to stop this from working?

03-04-2002, 08:35 AM	#26
Liedts Junior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 51	After what just happened in the Tri-state crematorium, one might wonder what could happen in a cryogenics storage. I mean, the incentive for not doing this properly is higher than in a crematorium, and with the passing of time, when all relatives of the person in storage have disappeared, the temptation will increase.

03-04-2002, 08:50 AM	#27
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Except that in this case, the people running the facility are also members and are also counting on being revived. There's also a lot more money involved, which makes the penalties for breach of contract a LOT more severe...

03-04-2002, 01:58 PM	#29
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Well the point of freezing is to preserve the basic cellular structure as much as possible... remember?

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