southernhybrid

There are injustices throughout the world. There are cruel dictators throughout the world. Ask yourself, why is it that this particular dictator, who has been contained since 1991 is suddenly such a threat to the US and/or the world. Why aren't we trying to free the women in Saudi? Why aren't we trying to free some of the African countries from their cruel dictators? What about North Korea? What about all of the horrible injustices and human rights issues in our own country?

Have you ever seen or read about the living conditions that some of our own American children live in when they are in foster homes? Several have dies alone in Georgia over the past year. Do you have any idea how disgusting the conditions are in many of our nations nursing homes? Have you ever seen maggots in a bedsore or an elderly person suffering from malnutrition due to poor care? Are you familiar with the deplorabe indigent defense system that currently exists in many of our states? Do you realize that some of our fellow citizens languish in prison for months on end before even having the opportunity to speak with counsel and that often that counsel is incompetent? What about the over 40 million Americans that have almost no access to healthcare? Who will help them?


We can't solve most of our own domestic problems so why are we trying to save the Iraqi people from their leader? It's propaganda and bullshit that we're being fed by our own leaders.

Wouldn't the money spent on this pending war be better served on some other purpose? Can we even afford this war, and if so at who's expense? Are dead Iraqi's better off then those who live under Saddam? What will replace him is he is ousted? Is it smart to start a war unilaterally that has so little international support? Is it possible that all of this is merely about controlling Iraq's oil, showing off our war toys or trying to scare the bejesus out of the rest of the world, thus proving our international bully reputation? Those are just a few questions for you to think about, not to answer here. I just needed a little rant.

Mr. Superbad

They don't basically say the same thing. CBS says 800 precision guided bombs attacking the the upper levels of the Iraqi army and cutting off communications. The other sources say 800 in Baghdad alone raining terror on the civilian population.

They bombed for a month last time, with only somewhere around 10-15% of the bombs being guided. It's not the same war.

I have no idea how many civilians will die, neither does anybody else. If it goes okay, it won't be very many at all. The only danger civilians have of bombs is if we have faulty intellegence, or if there is some random fluke error that makes the bomb miss it's target. If you read any of the links I posted, you'd realize the plan is NOT to go after the regular army, only the republican guard and upper military. We have this whole propaganda campaign going that's telling the army we are not their enemy.

My problem is with taking pentagon quotes from an anonymous source out of context, and using that to claim the next war will be like the dresden firebombing or hiroshima. Especially when it contradicts plenty of other information about what the proposed plan is.

yaktldg

Mr. Superbad: "My problem is with taking pentagon quotes from an anonymous source out of context, and using that to claim the next war will be like the dresden firebombing or hiroshima. Especially when it contradicts plenty of other information about what the proposed plan is."

I guess you chose to ignore the quotations I posted from Harlan Ullman, the architect of "shock and awe" himself and military strategist. I'll repost: "the planned attack will...take the city down. You get rid of their power, water."

Along with Krepinevich (Executive Director of the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments and Krepinevich, former Army officer and frequent Pentagon adviser) who also said: "But they believe that if you can move fast enough, if you can generate this snowball effect -- this momentum for collapse -- then these plans to turn cities into killing zones won't be able to be executed, because the regime will start to collapse."

These aren't anonymous sources and seem to confirm the description given by the anonymous source from the Pentagon.

"It's not the same war...I have no idea how many civilians will die, neither does anybody else."

Well, Iraq will probably be a similar war (as you've argued: guided bombs, targeting military) as was waged in Afghanistan (except, it seems, it will be far more brutal), so indulge: Daily Casualty Count of Afghan Civilians Killed in U.S Bombing Attacks

Danya

This war is being waged on a city...not some caves and mountains and desert so you can't help but kill people...destroy their homes and livelyhoods, schools and hospitals. It isn't necessary...it's not self defense...it's just agression.

I see a serious lack of empathy in America. People here refuse to put themselves in someone elses place or try to understand how our actions will affect the rest of the world while we sit home untouched and unfazed. What a bunch of propaganda swallowing cowards there are in the land of the brave.

Mr. Superbad

I guess you chose to ignore the dozens of other comments from military advisors about the plan which say we are NOT going to carpet bomb the city and civilians. You're taking the most sensationalist comments, likely out of context, and basing your arguement on that instead of all the other information available.

If you paid attention to the quote, you would realize that they trying to prevent the cities from becoming killing zones. Hence the "won't be able to be executed, because the regime will start to collapse" part.

If I believed everything I read that might be convincing. I looked at that site a while ago and the guy counts anything and everything, including oped pieces and reports from people who weren't anywhere near afghanistan. He also included multiple accounts from the same incident and added those to the total. The number was inflated to draw some moral equivilent with the attack on the WTC buildings. Not to mention that a lot of the reports came directly from the taliban and were later discredited by reporters who were on the ground at the time.

A report that's probably closer to the truth can be found here.

Mr. Superbad

Why, because you say so? I think I'll listen to the people who are actually planning the war to figure out what their strategy is.

Danya

You have the right to listen to whomever you want. Just don't expect the world to go along with it. And don't whine and cry about people hating America if you can support this kind of foreign policy. All you are doing is legitimizing people like bin Laden and giving them a justification for their next attack...too bad a lot of good and innocent people everywhere will have to pay for this mistake.

john_e

If the military are relying on "intelligence" reports to target their missiles, then we'll see a lot of civilian deaths. Plus most of Iraq is now dependent on state aid, after being crippled by the first Gulf War, so any disruption to this for any period of time is going to kill people. Hence it needs to be done quick, but...it's one hell of a dilemma.

A point to consider, Mr.Superbad: would you want to be a civilian in Baghdad when the bombing starts?

Take care all.

yaktldg

mr. superbad: "I guess you chose to ignore the dozens of other comments from military advisors about the plan which say we are NOT going to carpet bomb the city and civilians. You're taking the most sensationalist comments, likely out of context, and basing your arguement on that instead of all the other information available."

Not only did I read the quotations you provided, but I completed two of them (Ullman and Krepinevich). The other two don't discount the Ullman and Krepinevich quotations that mention planned targeting (if needed) of civilian infrastructures.

"If you paid attention to the quote, you would realize that they trying to prevent the cities from becoming killing zones. Hence the "won't be able to be executed, because the regime will start to collapse" part."

Sure, but the plan is there. And whether or not civilians are ever intentionally targets, there will inevitably be casualties and the blood will be on your hands.

john_e: "A point to consider, Mr.Superbad: would you want to be a civilian in Baghdad when the bombing starts?"

Excellent question.

Mr. Superbad

Don't expect me to take seriously any arguement which takes a couple comments from the pentagon and uses that as proof the US will go in and level Baghdad, and compare the strategy to hiroshima or the firebombing during wwII. Especially when there is plenty of other sources of information out there that are much more detailed about what the proposed strategy is that is availble with a simple google search.