Yellum Notnef

I was up watching the Saddam tape at 3 in the morning and the translator had a hard time keeping up with it,but God was mentioned at least 2 dozen times during the speech.
God is apparently going to lead great people of Iraq to victory if they are patient.

This afternoon the mother of one of the captured helicopter pilots said that not only have prayers been "lifted up",but that she and her family were "fasting".

FASTING!?!?!
These people aren't eating until God steps in and frees their family member.:banghead:

Everything about this war is very sad and frustrating.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Fenton Mulley
FASTING!?!?!
These people aren't eating until God steps in and frees their family member.

That's great; when the guy arrives home, they'll all be slimmed-down and looking good for him.

lpetrich

2500 years ago, a wise old man named Xenophanes had noted:
Xenophanes seems a bit like a QoS from 2500 years ago...

motorhead

I've always wondered too what these Muslims think about their god after they lose a battle. You constantly hear Muslims claiming that their god will do these great things for them and when it doesn't happen, you have to wonder what these people think about it. A good example is the Taliban continually claimed that their god would bring them victory over the infidels in the fight for control of Afghanistan. Any of these guys question why their god didn't bring them victory? I guess it's possible that the Taliban defines victory differently than infidels, which is probably one way these guys explain why their god apparently didn't bring them victory.

motorhead

And what will this mother think if her son is killed by the Iraqi's? What will she think about her god apparently not answering her prayers and the prayers of thousands around the country for her son? I'm sure it will be explained away so that their god escapes all responsibility. Believers will say things like "it was God's time for him to go..." or "at least he's in the arms of our Heavenly Father now...". Sad indeed.

beth

I think that this mother is doing all she can to try to keep her son alive. She is dealing with this in the only way that she knows how, through her faith. It is better that she does this, than falls apart with no hope. If I were in her shoes and it were my son who was cartured, I would do ANYTHING to get him home. She believes in the divine, so she is trying to petition her God. I truly hope that she will not be dissapointed, but if she is, it really isn't right to speculate on her predicament.

Radorth

I'm probably in a small minority of Christians, but God seldom helps anybody in war. The only war which was particularly "just" IMO was World War II. I can't say God helped directly, but I can say Churchill's "Christian civilization" had many circumstances turn their way in an almost miraculous manner. One or two American pilots and two of Yamamoto's overconfident advisors made all the difference at Midway. Our torpedoes (air or ship launched) never worked right until later in '43, but we won sea battles anyway. The Japanese and German codes were broken unbeknownst to them. How lucky could we be to have captured their codes and kept it secret fo so long? Hitler made some unbelievably stupid mistakes, which he probably never admitted, and because he surrounded himself with butt kissers. Pride goeth before the fall. Whether it was God helping arrange circumstances or just the wisdom of God working in people, I do not know.

That seems true of the Revolutionary war as well, according to some of Washington's remarks-e.g. the discovery of Arnold's treachery minutes before it would have much worsened an already tenuous situation.

The concept of "mutual submission" seems to me a distinctly Christian ideal, which is why democracy works so much better among Christian countries or those with Christian traditions. I hearby predict the Iraqi's will never really be able to handle democracy, and the country will end up fractured and as bad off as it ever was. "Those who will not be ruled by God (or Christian ideals if you insist) will be ruled by tyrants." You can't just decide to work together, and remain accountable, however beneficial it is proven to be. You have to be taught it until you believe it and practice it. The Kingdom of God will be naturally benevolent and will run perfectly because it will consist entirely of willing servants.


In any case God can do little (in this dispensation anyway) without interfering with free will. He will prevent a "chosen" people from being wiped out certainly, but that seems the only time we see him taking direct action, and that was under a different dispensation.

Rad

motorhead

Blonde: I understand your point. I hope her son returns to her alive and well too. I was only making comments and asking questions about the ineffectiveness of prayer. I understand it can have a comforting effective on people but I wonder why believers don't question the ineffectiveness of prayer to bring about a certain outcome in life. I wonder why they don't question why their god doesn't bring about a requested outcome.

Rhea

Which brings up the relevance of SOME prayer as effective. Namely, that prayer seeking strength for dealing with what's happening.

Those prayers CAN be "answered" and can be quite effective.

I just wish that this was accepted as the actual purpose of prayer.

lpetrich

The argument from close calls, like Radorth's examples, can be used in favor of the existence of other deities.

~2500 years ago, the Persians were building the biggest empire that anyone had yet known, conquering most of the more habitable parts of the Middle East.

However, at the northwestern part of their domain was some people who stubbornly resisted them, who were more than willing to hold out against the greatest military force that the world had then known.

And they won. Which is why the Persian Wars are generally not known as the "Greek Wars". Does that mean that the deities of Mt. Olympus had intervened to help their worshippers? If so, then building the Parthenon was giving credit to where credit was due.