ex-preacher

I would like to reply, but I don't understand your latest round of questions. Could you pick one and clarify it for me?

One way I can educate you is by pointing you in the direction of some good articles that more fully explain my position. I think you'll find that they are very readable and worth your time. After all, you can lead a friend to water, but you can't make him think.

AJ113

No, I believe their sensibilities play a major part in their moral character. That is my point. I am taking "sensibilities" to mean emotions. If you mean something different, please explain.

Again, what do you mean by "moral?"

AJ113

I personally find it sad that you resort to a straw man to enforce your point.

Me neither.

Me too.

I think that you are just playing games for your amusement. I am sure that anyone, including you, Brighid, who has read my posts would recognise that I was outlining a hypothetical situation that could be applicable to anyone, not just me.

I was role-playing, and that is surely obvious. I would not declare my Christan faith in one breath and then declare my desire to be a serial rapist and mass murderer in the next.

Ad-hominem and straw man all in one go. Nice.

AJ113

How do define "right?"

Philosoft

When I wrote: AJ replied:<strong> If it's patronizing at all, it's necessarily so, as long as you keep making statements about what all Christians or all atheists believe or don't believe.

Philosoft

It's kind of a tortured phrase, I admit, though I think this definition of 'sensibility' is accurate: "Mental or emotional responsiveness toward something"; in which case, offending such would cause negative "emotional responsiveness."


In response to my evidence of biblical interpretation: AJ responded:<strong> You tell me. You're the one who thinks interpretation is a minor part of biblical Christianity.

[ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]</p>

free12thinker

You noted:
"My point here is that without God, morals and principles are defined on an individual basis. I would not need society to tell me how to lead my life, I am capable of making my own decisions."

My morals and principles are defined on an individual basis anyway. They are defined by my sensibilities, my emotions, and reactions to the world around me. Why do I think killing's wrong? Because when I seen people die, I yield an emotionally negative response. Why don't I hit people? Because I've been hit before and I don't like how it feels. Why don't I harass people? Because I don't like being harassed myself and I don't like to express negativity. None of this comes from a god. People are naturally reactant to things around them, and when the reactions are negative, people will avoid them as they can. These are peoples sensibilities working. Of course, there are people who do not exhibit these sensories, and they end up destroying themselves or others.

When I asked the question regarding morals, I was replying to your resonse that 'without God, morals and principles are defined on an individual basis', and in using that statement, you are obviously inferring that there is a god (which was also obvious by your previous posts). I was simply stating that since you believe we have a god, and I don't believe there is one, then where do I get my ideas surrounding morals. How do I know it's not right to kill, rape, steal, assault, etc.....? In short, since you (and most theists) claim that morality comes from god, where do atheists get their moralities from?

ex-preacher

I believe I answered this on page 4 of this thread. If you want a more specific answer than I gave there, I'll need a more specific question.

Jayhawker Soule

What system of "right or wrong, good or evil" is unique to Christianity?

Typhon

AJ113 said:

My question is are you really this simple? You apparently have no morals beyond what your silly religion requires of you, or at least you THINK you do not.

This is demonstratively false.

Religion (and god) is a product of man, linked closely with the development of society and culture, and at its onset at least, a sub-set within that society and culture. Not surprisingly, the morals and issues that ALL religions concern themselves with, are the morals and issues that are of concern to the societies and cultures that spawned them, which are of course, what is of concern to the species which has created those societies and cultures.

It has been successfully shown that certain types of behavior in group species and group societies, are either beneficial or detrimental to both the individuals and the societies/groups as a whole. Not surprisingly, these patterns match up very well, with those across the board "morals" which are shared by most if not all of human societies.

So. Unless you are planning to move to a shack somewhere in the wilderness and never interact with another member of your species ever again, you will never be "looking after myself first, with the rest of society not even making last place," if for nothing else because you can NOT look after yourself first, without looking out for the society you are not only a part of, but biologically and sociologically interdependent with, right down to your genes and inherited (as well as learned) behavior. I would challenge that even then, you could do so, as you are already "culturally contaminated" and have certain inherited as well as learned traits which predispose you towards morality.

You just don't know much obviously about what morals are, where they come from, or what being a social animal means. Of course, it doesn't really matter that you do or do not, because your lack of understanding doesn't change the fact that you are this and thus act accordingly.

AJ113, again:

Because if you don't, YOU don't survive. YOU don't pass on offspring. THEY don't either. And eventually, YOU and all those like you, cease to exist. You are here today precisely because in part YOU demonstratively DO care about the survival of species, namely your own, and you DO care about the stability and progress of society (the one you live in, because it directly affects your chances of survival).

This is true no matter WHAT you believe in, god on a mountain, the tooth fairy, or a celestial organ grinder at the center of the Horseshoe Nebula.

AJ113 spoke thus:

ONLY IF YOU DO NOT LIVE IN THAT SOCIETY! How obtuse can you really be? God, morals, and principles (to a lesser degree) are NEVER defined on a totally "individual basis." There are no humans extant on this planet that live out their entire lives in a cultural vacuum (OK, living in parts of the US does come close to living in a cultural vacuum, but that's another thread entirely I suppose. ). You, certainly are not one of them.

There is no reason thus to expect that you would revert to this miraculous tabla rasa state if you suddenly lost your faith in god or whatever other crackpot belief you follow.

Proof positive can easily be found in all the atheist and non-believers who go on being just, productive, and MORAL members of their respective societies and cultures all over the world.

You are quite simply, completely wrong on this subject. I suspect it is because you do not understand the terms and concepts involved in part, and that you have not either bothered to do your research or have not been exposed to the readily available research and information on these subjects.

.T.