ShabbyChick

Couldn't agree more. A person should have the right to do with their body as they see fit. If they want to eat all the wrong foods and die of a heart attack, well, that is their prerogative. If they choose to jump from a bridge, then so be it, just don't do it during rush hour or land on my car!

ShabbyChick

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: ShabbyChick ]</p>

MadMordigan

Just because one wishes to end their life, no other reason. I suppose I can see this, and while I do not agree that "just because" is a truly acceptable answer, those are only my feelings.

The only thing I hate worse than being told what I can and cannot do is having to tell someone else what they can and cannot do. I do not care to live my life inside other people's heads. A person killing themselves neither picks my pocket nor breaks my arm, at least not in a way we would condemn a similar action.

If suicide is the best answer for all situations in life then where does that leave humanity? What is the purpose of procreation or even existing? Why should we not just all commit suicide, there seems to be no reason unless there can be some kind of rationally objective value of life.

A subjective value is all that is required to have meaning in one's life.

free12thinker

I'll join Shabby Chick in agreeing with you on all cylinders. We don't have to embrace life or procreation for that matter. And if life ceases to exist because everyone committed suicide or failed to pro-create, that would be better than a civilization of that wasn't free to make their own decisions that governed their own lives.

Samhain

Ok, do you really think the average Joe/Jane is intelligent enough to cope with nihilism? I know I can find meaning within a meaningless existence and I choose to view existence as a better thing than non existence regardless of how absurd and crappy life is. That is my view. Do you honestly believe that the uneducated man could cope with such? What would be the result of nihilism? Nothing would matter any longer to anyone, those who value existence would be more likely live in fear from those who do not than anything else. If a man does not value their own existence, it's hard to say that they could truly value much at all, let alone MY existence. What is the purpose of valuing anything when one does not value their own life? Just because one does not value their existence, it does not mean that suicide will necessarily be the answer for all of these people. Others may choose to just live their lives as they please, regardless of consequences because none of it matters anyway. Nihilism of the value of life means the nihilism of the value of anything within that life. If you think mankind would be better off with no social controls, then more power to you I guess. But as long as some people value life, they will try and compensate by making laws in order to attempt to force others to value their lives as well, and in turn respect the lives of everyone, thus adding to our great freedom.

MadMordigan

But as long as some people value life, they will try and compensate by making laws in order to attempt to force others to value their lives as well, and in turn respect the lives of everyone, thus adding to our great freedom.

Tolerating suicide has nothing to do with what social customs and laws we will set up. HOw are you going to FORCE someone to value their life? "Step away from the ledge or we will shoot?"

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: MadMordigan ]</p>

Samhain

The key word there was attempt. While it's not possible to force someone to value life, by setting up laws to combat suicide one is able to derive that it is not socially acceptable (at least not in all cases). It will force some to search for alternatives and better their life, and in turn value their life instead of allowing one to commit suicide no matter what the case. You all seem to think that the suicide law is an unfair law forced upon people just because we don't want people to die. Do you really think the government gives two shits about whether you die or live? Of course not (except for tax purposes of course). By portraying that suicide is ok, regardless of situation, we devaluize life, even for those who do still value life. Allowing suicide, in all cases, would be nothing different than basically throwing out all law books. One could then derive that if suicide is permissible and not only that, but is probably the more rational decision, since life does not matter in the end anyway, that everything is therefore permissible since there is no value placed upon life. You'd be opening yourself up to all kinds of acts by basically saying: "Since we hold no value to life, we do not hold value to anything, therefore following our laws do not make a difference since life means nothing in the end." Result: utter chaos. Let's face it, relative morality can only be shown to be a good thing when those who possess it have the ability to reason, without that ability then a person would be inclined to think that everything is permissible and nothing is really wrong in the world, thus any act they commit should never be seen to be bad, evil, or immoral.

free12thinker

But what explanation do we come up with to explain why it is not socially acceptable? What possible rationale can be put behind an explanation telling someone that society has deemed it unaccpetable for them to live or die. If we are to tell them this, than we are to tell them that they are prisoners. Remember, they did not choose to be born, therefore, they should be able to opt out. Much like slaves did not choose to work on plantations, it was against their will. And making someone stay on this earth is to promote slavery of mankinds existence.

free12thinker

But what explanation do we come up with to explain why it is not socially acceptable? What possible rationale can be put behind an explanation telling someone that society has deemed it unaccpetable for them to live or die. If we are to tell them this, than we are to tell them that they are prisoners. Remember, they did not choose to be born, therefore, they should be able to opt out. Much like slaves did not choose to work on plantations, it was against their will. And making someone stay on this earth is to promote slavery of mankinds existence.

It resembles the argument behind homosexuality. To a lot of people, homosexuality is wrong because it goes against the norm. It goes against what seems natural. Man and woman. Now you're trying to explain that wanting to live should just be natural and if it's not, than there's something wrong.

ShabbyChick

Making suicide "legal" is not going to create a society of nihilists. I don't think there is some huge number of people NOT killing themselves and NOT feeling worthless just because suicide is "illegal". A few more people might commit suicide, especially those at the end of their natural lives or those living with terminal or painful diseases, but the average person is not going to suddenly think it's a great idea.

Don't we already have a number of these people in our society? We call them criminals and when they commit crimes against others we prosecute them for not valuing the lives of the victims. Also, if suicide was legal there might be more information available to those who want to kill themselves to do it correctly. We'd have less vegetables laying in hospital beds and maybe some of Andrea Yates kids would still be alive because she might have succeeded in her attempts.

ShabbyChick

WhiteKnight

As simply as I can put it:

I value life.
I value freedom.

Normally, these two are not in conflict. In the case of suicide, they are.

Ultimately, I value freedom more than life. Of course, my own lack of suicidal tendencies has not placed me in conflict personally...