Murray

Hi Gandhi,

God is not obligated to give us free will. God chose to give us free will because he desired to create a world in which love could exist.

Have you ever seen The Truman Show? In this movie, Truman discovers that his entire life is an elaborately constructed reality show. At the end of the movie, he is standing at the door of the man-made world he has been confined in all his life. The man who created the show is talking to him, trying to get him to stay. Truman asks, "Was anything real?" The man answered that it wasn't, but that the same lies existed in the world outside, and in this world Truman couldn't get hurt. Truman walked out the door, because he knew that even though the world is a painful place full lies and suffering, it is better than a world in which your wife is an actor and your "best friend" is reciting a script.

When God created a world of free beings, he necessarily created a world in which evil could enter. But he has not made himself immune to that evil. He suffers with us, and even became one of us in order to redeem us.

People are saved because they believe in Jesus, not because they worship Him. Christ offers salvation to us, because He would not force Himself upon us. But he offers it to all as a free gift and requires nothing more than that we take it. Do you think he should limit his offer to only those who have not committed "terrible acts of murder or something"?

It is easy to be a skeptic. It is safe, because you don't commit to anything that you cannot see or touch. But it leaves you living in a world where love is a chemical reaction. I cannot prove to you that God exists; I can only point you to Jesus Christ. He loves you, whether you believe in Him or not. I hope that you will one day open yourself up to His love.

Biff the unclean

Murray, where in the bible does God give us free will? I can find nothing mentioning it nor do I see any bible tale that even suggests that he approves of us having it.

TomboyMom

O.K., now why does he command us to commit evil deeds? by "evil deeds" I mean deeds that you or I would consider to be evil under any other circumstance, such as stabbing babies to death.

If by free you mean, "Do as I say or I'll torture you forever," then, yes, I guess that's free.

Not only can you not prove it, you cannot provide an iota of credible evidence in support of your hypothesis.

Are you in the habit of believing things because someone else tells you? Because I also have a friend, an invisible friend, who will do whatever you ask if you give me lots of money. I'll send you my PayPal info. It's easy to be skeptic--it lets you out of sending me the money. I cannot prove to you that my invisible friend exists, I can only point to him. He loves you, whether you believe in him or not. But he will only help you if you give me money. More money, more help. I hope that one day you will open yourself up to his love and help.

Murray

Has he commanded you to do that? Strange. He hasn't commanded me to do that. Instead he has commanded me to pray for my enemies and love my neighbor as myself.

Hell is not "I'll torture you forever." Hell is a place where people who have rejected God will be allowed to live without Him.

Of course! I believe that F=ma, because Newton told me that. I believe that the planets travel in eliptical orbits, because Kepler told me that. And I believe that Jesus rose from the dead becasuse people with nothing to gain and everything to loose swore that they had seen Him alive.

I am sorry, Tomboymom, but I don't believe in your invisible friend. Jesus, however, wasn't invisible. I believe in Him because of what He said and did.

Murray

Throughout the entire Bible, free will is clearly implied. From beginning to end, God deals with people as beings who have the capacity to make moral choices and will be held accountable for the choices they make:

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..." - Joshua 24:15

"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live..." - Deuteronomy 30:19

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!” – Mathew 23:37

"But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." - John 5:40
But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and contrary people.” – Romans 10:21

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." - Revelation 22:17

Free will is also mentioned directly in the Bible:

"All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do." - Exodus 35:29 (there are numerous similar instances of the word "freewill")

Murray

Maybe I can provide some. What evidence would you consider credible for establishing the validity of an event in the ancient past such as Ceaser crossing the Rubicon, Alexander conquering the world, or Jesus rising from the dead?

Cheerful Charlie

But then we learn Free Will does not exist, all is predestinated. Romans 8 -11 et al. Joshua 11, God hardens the hearts of the Canaanites so they will attack the Israelites and the Israelites must slay them.

Free will is not something God values highly according to these billy goat herder priest tall tales.

Romans 11 mentions other OT verses where God hardens hearts. The bible then is a contradictory mass of nonsense. Why should anybody who notices this care about this mass of superstitious nonsense?

CC

Biff the unclean

That’s nonsense Murray. Throughout the bible it is nothing but obey, obey, obey. “Choose this day whom you will serve.” Followed by “Now choose life, so that you and your children may live..." a death threat. And "All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do."
The very quotes you choose show that you are absolutely wrong about the bibles stand on free will. Would you like to claim that the Ten Commandments are really the Ten Suggestions?

The very first story about people in the bible has God forbidding them from having free will. A&E have zero knowledge of good and evil so they have no ability to make choices, no free will at all. In fact your own bible claims that it was the snake…identified with the devil in the NT…who saved mankind from this deplorable state and gave them the ability to tell right from wrong. The bible considers the gaining of free will to be the original sin. The bible refers to the gaining of free will as the “Fall of Man.”

Do you pray “My will be done,” or “Thy will”…? If it’s “Thy” then your free will is a joke and your God wants you to be a robot.

Murray

[QUOTE=Biff the unclean;4745285]Biff, do you supose the 10 commandments have ever been broken? Just because God wants us to make certain choices, begs with us and pleads with us and even threatens us (kind of like a father) does not mean that we do not have free will. The very fact that he does all this proves that He knows we have the ablility to choose.

Murray

You need to read your Bible a little more carefully. This is part of a paper I wrote on Romans 9-11:

Calvinists have taken phrases from this passage and used them to teach that only the individuals whom God chose can believe in Jesus Christ and be saved. The rest of humanity are “vessels of wrath” that God has chosen to “harden” so that they cannot believe and be saved. There are many errors in this interpretation:

First, the sovereign choice in this passage is not the choice of individuals to be saved. After presenting the complete message of the gospel - from the sinfulness of man (1:18-3:20) to the free gift of salvation through faith in Jesus (3:21-5:21) and victorious life in the Spirit (6:1-8:39) - Paul deals with a question that many in his audience would certainly be wondering by now (9-11). Where does Israel fit in to all of this? Clearly the majority of them had rejected Jesus. What about the promises of salvation that God made to Israel? Paul argues that “it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, ‘In Isaac your seed shall be called.’ That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as seed.” Paul is arguing is that the promise of God’s salvation does not apply to the physical descendents but to the “children of promise.” As we see in Romans 4:13-16, Paul is referring to those who share in the faith of Abraham. God chose to save those who have faith like Abraham, not those who are the physical descendents of Abraham (just as God chose Isaac, the child of promise, over Ishmael, who was also a physical descendent of Abraham). This is much different than saying that God chooses which individuals will have faith like Abraham! Paul anticipates that some might argue that it was unfair for God to choose to save only those who have faith and not choose to save all of Israel. He responds by demonstrating God’s sovereignty, but in so doing, he is not arguing that God chooses which individuals will have faith. God’s choice of Jacob and Esau did not determine whether or not they would go to heaven. It determined which one of them would be the father of Israel. God’s mercy to Moses was that God allowed Moses to see His glory (Exodus 33:18-19); it had nothing to do with anyone’s salvation. God gave Pharaoh success and removed his inhibitions and fears so that he would fulfill the purposes of God concerning Israel. Nevertheless, this is hardly saying that God sealed Pharaoh in eternal damnation from before the beginning of time. This passage certainly teaches that God makes sovereign choices in His dealings with men. The most significant is His choice to save anyone who believes on Jesus Christ (John 6:40).

Secondly, Gentile unbelievers are not discussed anywhere in Romans 9-11. This is possibly the most obvious and embarrassing mistake in the Calvinists’ exegesis of this passage. The “vessels of wrath” are clearly unbelieving Israelites, those who are not a part of the believing “remnant.” It is a huge mistake to read the majority of humanity into that select group.

Thirdly, the “vessels of wrath” were “prepared for destruction” because of their unbelief, not because of an eternal decree. The vessels of wrath have not “attained to righteousness,” because “they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.” In 11:21, Paul says that “because of unbelief they were broken off...” The "blindness" of 11:7 is that which is spoken of in John 12:37-41: "But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him...Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 'He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.'” As it was in Isaiah's time, this blindness was a punishment for previous sin! The reason God sends blindness on people is not so that they will not have a chance to believe but to punish them for their unbelief. This will happen again in the last days: "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).

Fourthly, the “vessels of wrath” can still be saved. Paul goes on to say that “…if they do not continue in unbelief, [they] will be grafted in again.” Paul expresses his desire to “save some of them” despite the fact that they have been “blinded.” He affirms that "'Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For 'whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'" The "blindness in part" is not an eternal decree that irreversibly damns individuals to hell; it is a national punishment that will be removed "once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." God will one day fulfill his promise (Jeremiah 31:33-40) and "all Israel will be saved."