Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ScotCochrane · 03-14-2003, 04:31 PM

Every super hero needs a villain. That is Satan�s role. Does he exist? Only in Christendom it seems.

Soma · 03-14-2003, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
This is the last time I will explain this to you: God is infinitely powerful, man is not. God can create morals which are objective in nature. Accept it and move one.

In the context of the prison, the warden is "infinitely" powerful, and creates rules. Neither the warden nor your version of god creates "objective" morals. They create and enforce subjective rules. Accept it and move on.

Again, God can create morality which is objective in nature. Indeed, such morality is only possible by God's power.

Why? Since when does "might make right" in a moral sense? (I know that this may be true in a practical sense; if god is infinitely powerful, then, yes, he can subject us to whatever set of arbitrary rules he wishes, but that does not make such a system derived from power "moral").

If God declares a moral edict, it is absolute. His power ensures it.

It's an edict enforced by power; it's not moral. It's a rule, or law, and an arbitrary one; there's nothing "moral" about it.

Simple reasoning. I hope you eventually come to understand it.

Not with my understanding of morals, which you by the way seem to have little grasp of:

moral (adj): relating to the standards of good or bad behaviour, fairness, honesty, etc. which each person believes in, rather than to laws.

A bully subjecting his will by force on his less-powerful companions is not establishing a moral system within the group. A warden subjecting his rules by force on a group of inmates is not establishing a moral system in the prison. A government subjecting its laws by force on its citizens is not establishing a moral system in the country. A god subjecting its rules or laws on a world by force is not establishing a moral ssytem on the world.

I am by no means arguing that what God declares is moral because of His ability to subject us to what He decrees.

I am arguing that God has the power redefine morality. God does not force us to be moral. We must choose to be moral.

Your analogy with the prison scenario doesn't work. The warden's power does not redefine morality for every living thing in existence. The warden has not managed to alter the actual nature of morality. The prisoners who subject themselves to the warden are not following "real" morality but the personal convictions of the warden on what morality is to him. The warden's power is transitory, God's is everlasting.

Soma · 03-14-2003, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft
I found a computer, so...

"Perfect" is a standard of something, an adjective's adjective, if you will. It means nothing to say God is "perfect." In any case, it's a judgement on your part. "Infinitely powerful" does not necessarily entail "perfect." I can conceive, in the sense that it's not a logical contradiction, of a infinitely powerful being that is playing self-serving games with us. This being might tell us its rules are "best for us to adhere to" when they are actually not.

I do not mean God is "perfect" in the Western sense. I am describing God's state of being in a more Taoist/Buddhist sense of harmony and balance. It's not a judgement on my part, but rather a "fact" about God's state of being.

Consequently, God's "perfectness" ensures He will not "abuse" His power, just as enlightened men do not undertake actions that are inappropriate for such men.

Jobar · 03-14-2003, 04:48 PM

Soma, I see from your profile you list yourself as a Vedantist. So may we presume that when you say 'God' you in fact mean 'Brahman'?

Ah, everyone- we are off the topic by a good ways, here. I find Soma's brand of theology to be interesting too, but let us go elsewhere to discuss it and let this thread go on with Satan and his role. I will start a new topic- "Brahman=God?"- and we will continue the discussion of Soma's beliefs. J.

Soma · 03-14-2003, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
Soma, I see from your profile you list yourself as a Vedantist. So may we presume that when you say 'God' you in fact mean 'Brahman'?

Yes, but I try to defend monotheism and Christianity whenever I can, though in reality I do not believe in the typical Western conception of God.

Mageth · 03-14-2003, 05:02 PM

I am arguing that God has the power redefine morality. God does not force us to be moral. We must choose to be moral.

And like the prisoners, we must "choose" to follow the rules or suffer the consequences. Like Luke in the prison, choosing not to be moral is met with swift and cruel retribution.

Luke followed a higher moral standard than the arbitrary rules imposed by the warden by choosing not to submit to the tyranny opposed by the warden. And I choose a higher moral standard by not submitting to a moral standard supposedly dictated by a warden god.

The warden has not managed to alter the actual nature of morality.

And neither has the god you described. If morality indeed has a nature, not even god can alter it.

The prisoners who subject themselves to the warden are not following "real" morality but the personal convictions of the warden on what morality is to him.

That's exactly how you've described the set of rules imposed by your notion of a god - they're his personal convictions, or rather his arbitrary definition of what morality is to be for us.

The warden's power is transitory, God's is everlasting.

So what? It makes no difference at all to the prisoners under the warden's control that the warden's power is transitory. Likewise, it makes no difference to us, in terms of morality, that god's power is described as everlasting. Neither the degree nor the duration of power has anything at all to do with morality.

Soma · 03-14-2003, 07:21 PM

Mageth, you don't seem to understand what God is. Nothing can exist without God. Everything that is now -- whether we speak of physical things or intangible concepts -- exist because God directly or indirectly caused them to be.

That being said, morality exists because God created it. You seem to believe in a form of morality that is independent of God, but that is absurd. Morality didn't exist until God made it. All the absolutes, axioms, facts, truths, etc. of the universe are established by God.

In your prison example, the warden cannot redefine the morality God created. What the warden decrees has no bearing on anyone outside the prison, nor will it affect morality after he has died/been subdued. When God decrees moral edicts, that decree alters morality for everything in existence for the rest of eternity.

Furthermore, you must concede that God's omnipotence permits Him to alter the inherent nature of things. God can change the nature of morality however He wishes, whenever He wishes. You may not want to accept it, but it remains true nonetheless.

Magus55 · 03-14-2003, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
No God is responsible for allowing the possibility of Evil by giving us Free will.

Right, so god is responsible for evil. If god didn't do what he did, there would be no evil. "First Cause" and all...

Free will and only being able to do what is good is contradictory.

Is it? A being who could do only what is good could still have choice in what it does, couldn't it? And isn't this tightly tied to what is defined as "evil"?

Will there be free will in heaven? By your argument, either there will be no free will in heaven or the occupants thereof will be capable of performing evil.

No God is responsible for creating a scenario in which evil can exist, not Evil itself. His creation created evil. All evil is, is anything against God or what he deems "not good". Since God can't not be good, he can't create Evil himself only the situation that allows his creation to choose to do what is Good under him, or do what isn't under him which we call evil.

If evil didn't exist you would have no freedom. In order for evil not to exist, you can never think any evil thoughts, or make any choice that would eventually lead to an evil act. Your mind would be controlled by having no thoughts outside God's, since everything good is of him. Try spending an entire day without thinking or doing one single evil act in terms of God's standards. I don't just mean, try to go a day without thinking about murdering someone but try to go a day without having one single thought that doesn't fall under God's righteousness. Thinking of Sex other than your wife for example isn't allowed. Since almost every Guy thinks about sex, you're in trouble. And that is one example, there are hundreds if not thousands of things we do and think about that aren't good to God. Its impossible to do that challenge for even a day. One single thought of a pretty girl other than your wife, is lust and you just failed.

Now imagine billions and billions of people trying to do that every single day for their whole lives, freedom would be non-existant.

Yes there will be Free will in Heaven, and yes the occupants will be capable of committing evil. But we will be in perfect sinless bodies, Satan won't have any control on us, and we will know what living in a world of Sin was like, why would we ever go back to that? The angels in Heaven right now have free will, but they saw what happened to Lucifer, so they have no desire to follow his path.

Soma · 03-14-2003, 07:38 PM

I disagree with your view, Magus. God did create evil. He is the prime cause whence causality and the universe comes. Consequently, evil is an everlasting effect of God's first-cause nature.

Also, it is not evil for God to create evil -- nor is it good for that matter. God's actions are not subject to judgement because they are beyond our ability to judge them. We can hold personal beliefs about whether or not His actions are good or evil, but in reality they are neither.

ScotCochrane · 03-14-2003, 07:41 PM

Evil is such a subjective thing anyway.

Mankind created evil.

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03-14-2003, 04:31 PM	#61
ScotCochrane New Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 3	Every super hero needs a villain. That is Satan�s role. Does he exist? Only in Christendom it seems.

03-14-2003, 04:48 PM	#64
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Soma, I see from your profile you list yourself as a Vedantist. So may we presume that when you say 'God' you in fact mean 'Brahman'? Ah, everyone- we are off the topic by a good ways, here. I find Soma's brand of theology to be interesting too, but let us go elsewhere to discuss it and let this thread go on with Satan and his role. I will start a new topic- "Brahman=God?"- and we will continue the discussion of Soma's beliefs. J.

03-14-2003, 05:02 PM	#66
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I am arguing that God has the power redefine morality. God does not force us to be moral. We must choose to be moral. And like the prisoners, we must "choose" to follow the rules or suffer the consequences. Like Luke in the prison, choosing not to be moral is met with swift and cruel retribution. Luke followed a higher moral standard than the arbitrary rules imposed by the warden by choosing not to submit to the tyranny opposed by the warden. And I choose a higher moral standard by not submitting to a moral standard supposedly dictated by a warden god. The warden has not managed to alter the actual nature of morality. And neither has the god you described. If morality indeed has a nature, not even god can alter it. The prisoners who subject themselves to the warden are not following "real" morality but the personal convictions of the warden on what morality is to him. That's exactly how you've described the set of rules imposed by your notion of a god - they're his personal convictions, or rather his arbitrary definition of what morality is to be for us. The warden's power is transitory, God's is everlasting. So what? It makes no difference at all to the prisoners under the warden's control that the warden's power is transitory. Likewise, it makes no difference to us, in terms of morality, that god's power is described as everlasting. Neither the degree nor the duration of power has anything at all to do with morality.

03-14-2003, 07:21 PM	#67
Soma Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States Posts: 102	Mageth, you don't seem to understand what God is. Nothing can exist without God. Everything that is now -- whether we speak of physical things or intangible concepts -- exist because God directly or indirectly caused them to be. That being said, morality exists because God created it. You seem to believe in a form of morality that is independent of God, but that is absurd. Morality didn't exist until God made it. All the absolutes, axioms, facts, truths, etc. of the universe are established by God. In your prison example, the warden cannot redefine the morality God created. What the warden decrees has no bearing on anyone outside the prison, nor will it affect morality after he has died/been subdued. When God decrees moral edicts, that decree alters morality for everything in existence for the rest of eternity. Furthermore, you must concede that God's omnipotence permits Him to alter the inherent nature of things. God can change the nature of morality however He wishes, whenever He wishes. You may not want to accept it, but it remains true nonetheless.

03-14-2003, 07:38 PM	#69
Soma Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States Posts: 102	I disagree with your view, Magus. God did create evil. He is the prime cause whence causality and the universe comes. Consequently, evil is an everlasting effect of God's first-cause nature. Also, it is not evil for God to create evil -- nor is it good for that matter. God's actions are not subject to judgement because they are beyond our ability to judge them. We can hold personal beliefs about whether or not His actions are good or evil, but in reality they are neither.

03-14-2003, 07:41 PM	#70
ScotCochrane New Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 3	Evil is such a subjective thing anyway. Mankind created evil.

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