Freethought & Rationalism Archive

scigirl · 07-23-2002, 07:01 AM

Hello Aldehyde, and welcome to infidels. We can always use more HC-OH groups around here!

Quote:

Originally posted by Aldehyde:
How did one specie become another brand new specie?

Well if you learn about <a href="http://www.erc.montana.edu/CBEssentials-SW/research/default.htm" target="_blank">biofilms</a>, which are groups of bacteria that adapt to living on slimy rocks, or plastic heart valves, you can start to see how multicellular organisms evolved.

Quote:

If subculturing = generation = time *and*
if antibiotics = environmental vector against the organism, **DOES** this satisfy Darwin's 'pre-requisites' for an evolution and can I get a brand new bug growing there anytime soon?

Sure it will happen soon, if soon means a million years or more. Good luck getting that grant from the NSF.

Quote:

The answer of my rhetorical question is NO. So if time and the environment do not result in evolution, what does?

Um, your lifespan is not enough time. If a bacteria mutated into a cow tomorrow in your lab, this would be evidence against the theory of evolution. But hopefully as a scientist, as they say on Friday, 'you KNOW this man.'

However, because of random mutation and natural selection (i.e. evolution), microbiologists and cell biologists do have to worry about pesky things like revertents, and cells that adapt to tissue culture.

Quote:

Anyone wants to disprove my statement? (or are you too fuzzy and have no clue in what I am talking about?)

No, I shaved this week, so I'm not that fuzzy.

My background BTW if you are interested: Bachelors in Cell and Molec Biology, masters in immunology, and expert grower of many microbes, including both viruses and bacteria (and occasionally fungi when my media becomes contaminated)!

scigirl

scigirl · 07-23-2002, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aldehyde:
Anyone wants to disprove my statement? (or are you too fuzzy and have no clue in what I am talking about?)

Beginning of rant:

Why is it that when creationists come to infidels, they automatically assume we are a bunch of uneducated morons that have never read a science book or the Bible, etc etc?

Is it because the forums they come from are uneducated morons?

Aldehyde, read this thread and then you know our backgrounds:

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=000368&p=" target="_blank">credentials of infidels here</a>

scigirl

KnightWhoSaysNi · 07-23-2002, 07:10 AM

Scigirl,

Shall we introduce Aldehyde to the mandatory chimp/human chromsome lesson for every new creationist?

Woohoo! 100 posts! I'm not a "visitor" anymore.

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Nightshade ]

Late_Cretaceous · 07-23-2002, 07:41 AM

Organisms evolve just as much in response to environmental opportunities as pressures.
Yes bacteria in a petri dish has a short generation time, but most of the reproduction going on is asexual, less recombination of genetic material occurs then would during conjugation. SO you cannot compare 1000 generations of log growth on media to 1000 generations of a vertebrate species reproducing sexually. Not only that, but the amount of genetic variation to justify calling a bacteria a new species is significantly more then that for a metazoan.

scigirl · 07-23-2002, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nightshade:
Shall we introduce Aldehyde to the mandatory chimp/human chromsome lesson for every new creationist?

Good idea - if he/she shows up again, I'll sure do that.

Quote:

Woohoo! 100 posts! I'm not a "visitor" anymore.

Yay nightshade!

scigirl

Jimmy Higgins · 07-23-2002, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl:
If a bacteria mutated into a cow tomorrow in your lab, this would be evidence against the theory of evolution.

{Destroying all evidence that the rock in my house turned into a cow overnight yesterday.}

butswana · 07-23-2002, 08:41 AM

Yeah, I hate it when my stuff turns into cows overnight.

pz · 07-23-2002, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aldehyde:
How did one specie become another brand new specie? According to Darwinism, it takes environmental distress along with ample of time for a specie to evolve into a brand new specie in order to strive through the environmental distress.

Where do you come off saying "according to Darwinism"? I'd have to say that you are remarkably ignorant of the subject in order to make that claim -- it is not one of the tenets of evolutionary biology that speciation requires time and stress.

Speciation is actually a rather maladaptive process. After all, it requires some sort of change that makes it difficult or impossible for subsets of a species to breed together. I'd argue that a lot of speciation is a matter of drift rather than any kind of adaptive change.

Quote:

In a microbiology lab, we have this pure colony of, let's say for instance, Staphylococcus aureus. I can subculture the organism as many time as I wish and I can put as much antibiotics to the culture medium as I wish.

If subculturing = generation = time *and*
if antibiotics = environmental vector against the organism, **DOES** this satisfy Darwin's 'pre-requisites' for an evolution and can I get a brand new bug growing there anytime soon?

So many implicit misconceptions!

Yes, you would get a 'brand new bug' right away. Mutational changes are occurring constantly.

Yes, this satisfies any prerequisites for evolution. It is a heritable change in a population -- it's even classically Darwinian, since it's an adaptive change in response to a change in the environment.

It is not speciation. I suspect rather strongly that you do not appreciate the difference, but speciation is not the only (or even a major) force in evolution.

Quote:

The answer of my rhetorical question is NO.

Incorrect. The answer is yes.

Quote:

So if time and the environment do not result in evolution, what does?

Anyone wants to disprove my statement? (or are you too fuzzy and have no clue in what I am talking about?)

I'm afraid the one who doesn't have a clue about what you are talking about is you, yourself. Please try to learn something about real evolutionary biology, instead of fantasizing about ludicrous silly theories that you label evolutionary biology.

Albion · 07-23-2002, 10:24 AM

Wonder why Aldehyde hasn't come back? I suppose it's too much to hope that a bit of elementary biology is being studied?

Kosh · 07-23-2002, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by butswana:
Yeah, I hate it when my stuff turns into cows overnight.

Would you guys quite screwing around with the small stuff, and give us an experiment that will turn stuff into Elizabeth Hurley overnight?

07-23-2002, 07:10 AM	#13
KnightWhoSaysNi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 2,767	Scigirl, Shall we introduce Aldehyde to the mandatory chimp/human chromsome lesson for every new creationist? Woohoo! 100 posts! I'm not a "visitor" anymore. [ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Nightshade ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-23-2002, 07:41 AM	#14
Late_Cretaceous Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Alberta Posts: 1,049	Organisms evolve just as much in response to environmental opportunities as pressures. Yes bacteria in a petri dish has a short generation time, but most of the reproduction going on is asexual, less recombination of genetic material occurs then would during conjugation. SO you cannot compare 1000 generations of log growth on media to 1000 generations of a vertebrate species reproducing sexually. Not only that, but the amount of genetic variation to justify calling a bacteria a new species is significantly more then that for a metazoan.

07-23-2002, 08:41 AM	#17
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	Yeah, I hate it when my stuff turns into cows overnight.

07-23-2002, 10:24 AM	#19
Albion Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: US east coast. And www.theroyalforums.com Posts: 2,829	Wonder why Aldehyde hasn't come back? I suppose it's too much to hope that a bit of elementary biology is being studied?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.