Freethought & Rationalism Archive

slacker · 07-23-2002, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by phaedrus:
I dont think he said religion is appropriate, it is more like he looking down upon the qualities of beings who subscribe to religion. It was the buildup before he introduces the ubermensch or overman - the solution to the problems.

If that sounds like transhumanism or eugenics, well maybe.

Sure, but I still think he saw religion as the only option for most people. In my view, he wasn't after giving the "ordinary man" new options or a way of life, he was after bigger game -- that is transcending morality. Only the strongest (the Brahmins of our society) could help attain this.

slacker · 07-23-2002, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ObjectivistForum.Com:
The above is basically an insult to the religious...

It basically says that the small person who is too lazy to educate themselves and to utilize their brain need religion to keep themselves feeling important in their own neurotic world.

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think Nietzsche gave much credence to or was quite concerned with education , neurosis, or to most people in general. He might say that you, me, and everyone else here are just ordinarians, and that for the most base of the ordinary, religion perhaps offered a way to deal with the uncertainty of life.

Illustrated:
BG&E 126: "A people is a detour of nature to get to six or seven great men. -- Yes, and then to get around them."

He certainly detested Xianity, but not for the "religous" reasons (Jesus, God,etc) so much as the restrictive moral implications that it forces on us. Xianity = saying NO to life.

slacker · 07-23-2002, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by peteyh:
One of Nietzsche's main points in Beyond Good and Evil was that there are two main types of morality that people have. one is a master morality, wherein people define for themselves what's right and wrong and the other is a slave morality, where people have those concepts defined for them.

Nietzsche didn't think that the majority of people had what it took to define morality for themselves, so they needed something to come along and define it for them. Religion serves that purpose and keeps them working hard and under control so that they don't get in the way of people who are actually doing useful things. Also the people who are doing useful things don't have to worry about the small things in life, like picking up the garbage and cleaning the streets, because there are the little people around to take care of that so they can concentrate on moving society forward.

Nietzsche was a real elitist who thought that the concept of everyone being equal slowed society down and brought everything to the lowest common denomenator. I have problems with that worldview and the thought that some people are inherently better than others, but I do agree that there are many people in the world who aren't able to think for themselves without outside help. Those people aren't, IMHO, any less valuable than people who are able to, but they do need something around to tell them what to do.

Yeah thats pretty much what I get out of it too. I still think there is some room in his work for individuals to be more frequent than one every 2000 years, but for the most part I don't think he cared much about the "rabble" or the "masses." Looking at our current situation, alas, he might be right.

--slacker

Defiant Heretic · 07-26-2002, 02:25 AM

I think what Nietzsche was saying is that religion makes it easier for people to be ruled.

He wasn't necessarily saying that this is a good thing.

Adrian Selby · 07-27-2002, 12:14 AM

I think Nietzsche's comments are harder to justify in a society that is becoming less religious, such as the UK. If religion becomes irrelevant, so does the truth of his argument, if people continue to find value in their lives.

There are many problems with that emboldened part of the quote in the above respect.

Adrian

Kharakov · 07-27-2002, 12:46 AM

Quote:

from Nietzsche 
One of Nietzsche's main points in Beyond Good and Evil was that there are two main types of morality that people have. one is a master morality, wherein people define for themselves what's right and wrong and the other is a slave morality, where people have those concepts defined for them.

What happens if you accept what Nietzsche proposes here? Does that mean you are a slave to his master concepts?

-k

atrahasis · 07-27-2002, 01:05 AM

If religion is there as a moral guide. Nietzsche's viewpoint of religion as a "good" for most people ... is OK. But it is NOT. How many christian, muslim born children are morally upright? How people have been killed in the name of religion? Many.

If you read Eistein writings on morals and religion carefully, you get a better grisp of what i'm saying here

Thanks

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Black Moses ]

07-27-2002, 01:05 AM	#17
atrahasis Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South of Sahara Posts: 216	If religion is there as a moral guide. Nietzsche's viewpoint of religion as a "good" for most people ... is OK. But it is NOT. How many christian, muslim born children are morally upright? How people have been killed in the name of religion? Many. If you read Eistein writings on morals and religion carefully, you get a better grisp of what i'm saying here Thanks [ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Black Moses ]</p>

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07-26-2002, 02:25 AM	#14
Defiant Heretic Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,288	I think what Nietzsche was saying is that religion makes it easier for people to be ruled. He wasn't necessarily saying that this is a good thing.

07-27-2002, 12:14 AM	#15
Adrian Selby Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Farnham, UK Posts: 859	I think Nietzsche's comments are harder to justify in a society that is becoming less religious, such as the UK. If religion becomes irrelevant, so does the truth of his argument, if people continue to find value in their lives. There are many problems with that emboldened part of the quote in the above respect. Adrian

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