Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vibr8gKiwi · 11-12-2002, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture:
The bible is, undeniably, a very well written, and inspirational, book.

I've read it, and I deny that.

11-12-2002, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn:
To rephrase the Great Deist, Thomas Paine: written revelation is an oxymoron, for revelation can only be called so by him who experience it. Other than that is hearsay. To say that the Bible is God's revelation is untrue; the Bible is mere hearsay. God's revelation, according to Paine, is Nature.

(He lived in the 18th century. Had he known about Darwinian evolution, he would have come to the modern conclusion that Nature itself is God).

The bible is hearsay to (un)believers who do not recognize its meaning in nature. Nature is never God but nature is at best the manifestation of God as the leading edge of evolution within nature. Darwin said, "there is no God because things change on their own." The Christian said "God is here because things change."

Taffy Lewis · 11-12-2002, 01:53 PM

Philosoft,

Quote:

Who knows? The only thing we can say about relevatory experiences is that, at the moment, there is no way to objectively distinguish 'real' revelations from 'fake' ones.

But there also isn't any means to objectively distinguish 'real' sensory experiences from 'fake' ones.

At least, not in the sense that there is some means which is independent of sensory experience which can be used to make the distinction.

If one can use some sensory experiences to check other sensory experiences then the theist could be allowed to use some "divine experiences" to distinguish the 'real' from the 'fake'.

There seems to be an epistemic double standard at work in your objection.

Philosoft · 11-12-2002, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:


But if the unknown exists the known must necessarily exist or we would have no knowledge thereoff. That is, the idea of no God can only be based on the idea of God.

Interesting. I like.

Philosoft · 11-12-2002, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taffy Lewis:


But there also isn't any means to objectively distinguish 'real' sensory experiences from 'fake' ones.

Depends on the value of intersubjectivity. I can show anyone how to experience my Vanilla Coke can. If I ask them questions about the can and their answers agree with my answers, it speaks to intersubjectivity, if not objectivity. No one can (or rather has) show(n) me how to experience God.

Quote:

At least, not in the sense that there is some means which is independent of sensory experience which can be used to make the distinction.

Perhaps some philosophers would disagree with you.

Quote:

If one can use some sensory experiences to check other sensory experiences then the theist could be allowed to use some "divine experiences" to distinguish the 'real' from the 'fake'.

If the former is true, then the latter seems to follow.

Quote:

There seems to be an epistemic double standard at work in your objection.

I don't necessarily complain that "divine experiences" lack objectivity, rather they lack the intersubjectivity that we ordinarily employ in its place.

thebeave · 11-12-2002, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SecularFuture:
The love of Jesus was revealed when he “came to our world as a human being, lived a sinless life, died on the cross, and rose from the dead.” And “because Christ died, our sins can be forgiven, and because He conquered death we can have eternal life.”

That’s a beautiful written and inspiring statement, isn’t it? The bible is, undeniably, a very well written, and inspirational, book.

The bible is very well written and inspirational? Uh... I feel like the little boy telling the Emporer that he has no clothes on, but here goes: As you have no doubt read on this BBS, the bible is full of killing (many of which were perpetrated by God himself), rape, sex, slavery, bigotry, animal sacrifice, etc. Not to mention self-contradictory and vague passages. Christians cannot even decide amongst themselves what the Bible is trying to say (hence the many denominations and cults). I suggest you spend some time at<a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com" target="_blank">Skeptics Annotated Bible</a> to check it out for yourself. Then come back here and tell us if you really think it is inspirational and well written.

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