Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Valentine Pontifex · 03-28-2002, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DougI:
Thanks very much for the suggestions. I should be done with the pamphlet in about a week or two.

Make sure you debunk claims that AiG actually makes. I great many of the claims mentioned in this thread are not made by AiG.

I really suggest mentioning the following out-of-context quote:
<a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/#s2-2" target="_blank">http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/#s2-2</a>

Lizard · 03-28-2002, 05:56 PM

Ask Ken Ham this: When the Flood came, were trees able to outrun raptors to higher ground? It would appear so, since they appear in higher (more recent) geological strata.

Also, you might ask him what caused the craters on the moon. I understand Duane Gish was made very uncomfortable by this question, since the YEC answer is "the war between Satan and the angels" or something similar, and even Gish realized how silly that sounds.

I'll warn you, though, Ken Ham has been at this a long time, and he's a very fast talker. I think it will be more effective to hand out fliers than try to argue with him in front of an audience. However, if you can think of hard questions he might not have a prepared answer for, then by all means, ask them.

ps418 · 03-28-2002, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Lizard:
Ask Ken Ham this: When the Flood came, were trees able to outrun raptors to higher ground? It would appear so, since they appear in higher (more recent) geological strata.[/QUOTE]

The trees were carried to higher ground by the lightening-fast giant ground sloths, who still managed to outpace the raptors.

DougI · 03-28-2002, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tgamble:
If possible HTMLize it so you can link to other sources on the web that refute and expose other cretinist claims.

I was going to put it in pdf format. Our group's last leafleting (demanding the Army of God be labeled as a terrorist organization) got picked up in two other states, I hope this one can follow AIG around whereever they go.

tgamble · 03-29-2002, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DougI:


I was going to put it in pdf format. Our group's last leafleting (demanding the Army of God be labeled as a terrorist organization) got picked up in two other states, I hope this one can follow AIG around whereever they go.

pdf is good. As long as it's available online!

pseudobug · 03-29-2002, 08:19 AM

Just took a few moments to browse through "LiesInGenesis" website, and turned up the following:

<a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/cec/docs/CvE_report.asp" target="_blank">So you're doing a report on Creation vs Evolution:</a> This one is just chocked full of bogus "suggestions" to students. Plus, the above link is full of "recommended" links to that appear to spawn off into well-catagorized sub-headings of atrocious lies located elsewhere on AiG. I am sure most of the links contain steaming piles of creationist horseshit..er, pardon me, bogus lies.

One would have to work lifetimes ferreting out the BS in the LiesInGenesis web site. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Claudia · 03-29-2002, 02:47 PM

If you are looking for observed species transition, make a search (web? books?) on "Ring Species" and "Arctic Seagull". For them, transition arises (and is visible) through space and not through time. Turning around the pole, starting from Europe (I think, not sure of that), there are tiny transitions which differentiate the neighbours, but they still can reproduce. When come back to Europe, they do not reproduce anymore with the first population (due to variations of eye colour which lead the male and female not tho recognise the other as a possible mate)

Kevin Dorner · 03-31-2002, 09:52 AM

Before putting together a pamphlet intended for people who will be listening to AiG bullsh... er... material, give <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/faq/dont_use.asp" target="_blank">http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/faq/dont_use.asp</a> a read. It is a list of creationist arguments that AiG recommends creationists not use, so if you state them in your pamphlet they will quickly be refuted.

My $0.02? The biggest conundrum with Biblical literalist creationism is the Bible itself: the two accounts of creation in Genesis contradict each other. Most if not all of AiG's audience will be Christian, so should be able to see this even if AiG's baloney is at too high of a level for laypersons to see the flaws with and they can check it with their own Bibles if they don't take your "word" for it... surprised no one mentioned this yet.

Genesis 1:9-27

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth (1), which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."(2)

In order:
(1) Animals created before the first human
(2) The first human couple (Adam and Eve) created at the same time

Genesis 2:5-22

"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.(1) And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them (2): and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."(3)

In order:

(1) Man created before animals
(2) Animals created after the first human, and he names them
(3) Woman created after man from one of his ribs

Let us know how it went.

Added: This may not seem like such a big deal, but remember that the "Prime Directive" of the AiG and all other fundamentalists is that the KJV Bible is absolutely correct in all places, divinely inspired and thus completely free of all errors of any kind. With this inflexible of a premise, it's not difficult to show its shortcomings. You would never be able to get the AiG'er to admit there is a contradiction (thus error) here, but the more sensible people in the audience might be convinced.

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Kevin Dorner ]

tgamble · 03-31-2002, 05:38 PM

I don't think that'll work to well. Remember who the audience will mostly be. The last thing they'll want to hear is attacks on the bible. AIG will most likely either come up with some BS explanation or dismiss it as irrelevent. They'll insist that the whole debate is a science one and whine that your bringing religion into it.

Right before they claim the bible is the word of god blah blah blah. Nobody ever accused em of being consistent.

I think the best stratagy is to point out examples of their incompetance and dishonesty.

Examples of a few misquotes (ones with the grammer changed or large amounts deleted would be good) etc.

Kevin Dorner · 03-31-2002, 05:52 PM

Yeah, probably right... but it sure would have worked well in 1925 when that was the only admissible evidence.

03-28-2002, 06:15 PM	#23
ps418 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 1,840	Originally posted by Lizard: <strong>Ask Ken Ham this: When the Flood came, were trees able to outrun raptors to higher ground? It would appear so, since they appear in higher (more recent) geological strata.</strong>[/QUOTE] The trees were carried to higher ground by the lightening-fast giant ground sloths, who still managed to outpace the raptors.

03-31-2002, 09:52 AM	#28
Kevin Dorner Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 762	Before putting together a pamphlet intended for people who will be listening to AiG bullsh... er... material, give <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/faq/dont_use.asp" target="_blank">http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/faq/dont_use.asp</a> a read. It is a list of creationist arguments that AiG recommends creationists not use, so if you state them in your pamphlet they will quickly be refuted. My $0.02? The biggest conundrum with Biblical literalist creationism is the Bible itself: the two accounts of creation in Genesis contradict each other. Most if not all of AiG's audience will be Christian, so should be able to see this even if AiG's baloney is at too high of a level for laypersons to see the flaws with and they can check it with their own Bibles if they don't take your "word" for it... surprised no one mentioned this yet. Genesis 1:9-27 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day. And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth (1), which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."(2) In order: (1) Animals created before the first human (2) The first human couple (Adam and Eve) created at the same time Genesis 2:5-22 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.(1) And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them (2): and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."(3) In order: (1) Man created before animals (2) Animals created after the first human, and he names them (3) Woman created after man from one of his ribs Let us know how it went. Added: This may not seem like such a big deal, but remember that the "Prime Directive" of the AiG and all other fundamentalists is that the KJV Bible is absolutely correct in all places, divinely inspired and thus completely free of all errors of any kind. With this inflexible of a premise, it's not difficult to show its shortcomings. You would never be able to get the AiG'er to admit there is a contradiction (thus error) here, but the more sensible people in the audience might be convinced. [ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Kevin Dorner ]</p>

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03-28-2002, 05:56 PM	#22
Lizard Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Kansas Posts: 169	Ask Ken Ham this: When the Flood came, were trees able to outrun raptors to higher ground? It would appear so, since they appear in higher (more recent) geological strata. Also, you might ask him what caused the craters on the moon. I understand Duane Gish was made very uncomfortable by this question, since the YEC answer is "the war between Satan and the angels" or something similar, and even Gish realized how silly that sounds. I'll warn you, though, Ken Ham has been at this a long time, and he's a very fast talker. I think it will be more effective to hand out fliers than try to argue with him in front of an audience. However, if you can think of hard questions he might not have a prepared answer for, then by all means, ask them.

03-29-2002, 08:19 AM	#26
pseudobug Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: land of confusion Posts: 178	Just took a few moments to browse through "LiesInGenesis" website, and turned up the following: <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/cec/docs/CvE_report.asp" target="_blank">So you're doing a report on Creation vs Evolution:</a> This one is just chocked full of bogus "suggestions" to students. Plus, the above link is full of "recommended" links to that appear to spawn off into well-catagorized sub-headings of atrocious lies located elsewhere on AiG. I am sure most of the links contain steaming piles of creationist horseshit..er, pardon me, bogus lies. One would have to work lifetimes ferreting out the BS in the LiesInGenesis web site. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

03-29-2002, 02:47 PM	#27
Claudia Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: France Posts: 715	If you are looking for observed species transition, make a search (web? books?) on "Ring Species" and "Arctic Seagull". For them, transition arises (and is visible) through space and not through time. Turning around the pole, starting from Europe (I think, not sure of that), there are tiny transitions which differentiate the neighbours, but they still can reproduce. When come back to Europe, they do not reproduce anymore with the first population (due to variations of eye colour which lead the male and female not tho recognise the other as a possible mate)

03-31-2002, 05:38 PM	#29
tgamble Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: St. John's, Nfld. Canada Posts: 1,652	I don't think that'll work to well. Remember who the audience will mostly be. The last thing they'll want to hear is attacks on the bible. AIG will most likely either come up with some BS explanation or dismiss it as irrelevent. They'll insist that the whole debate is a science one and whine that your bringing religion into it. Right before they claim the bible is the word of god blah blah blah. Nobody ever accused em of being consistent. I think the best stratagy is to point out examples of their incompetance and dishonesty. Examples of a few misquotes (ones with the grammer changed or large amounts deleted would be good) etc.

03-31-2002, 05:52 PM	#30
Kevin Dorner Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 762	Yeah, probably right... but it sure would have worked well in 1925 when that was the only admissible evidence.

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