Iasion

Greetings all,
I'm back after a nice Easter break

CX -
Well, I gave many examples of Paul refering to the crucifixion in ways which are clearly a spiritual concept and not a recent literal crucifixion of a person. Paul's writings are full of such non-historical references, if you think a tiny number of arguable references are proof of HJ, then good luck to you - I just don't see it is supported by the evidence of the writings.

Yes, Paul refers at length to Christ Crucified - but this clearly has nothing to do with the later Gospel Jesus - he is refering to the Archetypal Man, Iesous Christos, crucified in side us for our mortal life.

In fact it is you who reads what you have already decided - you cite a tiny number of arguable cases, compare this to the 200 MISSING references to Jesus at Earl's page :
<a href="http://www.magi.com/~oblio/jesus/silintro.htm" target="_blank">http://www.magi.com/~oblio/jesus/silintro.htm</a>

You cite 1Cor.2 - in fact this section is full of mystic and Gnostic language - the 'rulers of this age' actually refers to non-physical powers, certainly not the Romans, and this phrase turns up in other Gnostic works.


Alexis -
You mis-represented me completely - I specifically noted the importance of CONTEXT - and I note that the context which most fits with Paul's writings are the Gnostic scriptures and mystic works like The Dream of Scipio, The Delay of Divine Justice, Book of Enoch, The Ascension of Isaiah, and Philo - have you read those works to compare them to Paul?

What I don't agree with is reading Paul with the context of LATER times - i.e. a literal crucifixion. Many readers such as yourself, see a literal crucifixion of Jesus in Paul because it is so widely accepted now - but the evidence is really not there.

You also refer to a "massive conspiracy" by a "tiny unofficial sect" - get real!
I never said such a thing, I don't believe such a wild idea, I am unaware of any mythicist who claims such an crazy idea - this is purely a Straw-Man. It was NOT a conspiracy. If you think this is what the Mythical Jesus proponents claim then I don't think you have actually researched the issue.

It was a series of competing interpretations and mis-understandings that led to the creation of a historical Jesus from a Gnostic Christ.

Paul was a Gnostic - if read in the context of his times, it is clear he had a personal mystic experience and he wrote to describe what he had realised about God and Man - that we have an Image of the 1stborn inside us, a Christos or higher self which 'dies' in our life. The 'cross' means to loosen the bonds of the lusts of the flesh and 'rise' to Christ.

All the first century writers also say nothing about a historical Jesus - the crucifixion takes place inside oneself in spiritual terms. The Gnostics flourished in these times and the argument about the NATURE of Christ occupied the early Christians - spiritual Vs physical.

Only later, Ignatius refers to 'born of Mare' and 'suffered under the Pontos Pilatus' (dense sea of matter) - these phrases were mis-understood, perhaps even deliberately by some.

In mid 2nd century, the 'memoirs' appear and then by the late 2nd century, the story of Jesus is complete - it is not at all clear if these later authors actually realised there was no such person.

The materialists eventually won, erased the Gnostics and wrote the histories their way.

Quentin David Jones

james-2-24

From the writings of Paul, what seems to make the most sense to me that he believed in a physical earthly Jesus, but a purely spiritual resurrection. Paul doesn't seem to separate Jesus' resurrection from the ascension as do the later gospels, or indicate that the resurrection was a physical resuscitation (1 Cor 15). In other words he thought Jesus was resurrected directly to heaven.

spin

cx for some reason provides this as a translation of Romans 9:5:

"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ"

I don't know where this was obtained but I don't think it is not a good translation at all. Perhaps cx could justify using it, especially given the frequent and special uses of the phrase kata sarka found in the Pauline writings.