Carrie

Oh, and Magus, you didn't respond to what I said, about what you said.

You only said that you are just here to debate and defend the Bible. But then you admitted that you are here to try and save people, because you said you "gave up" trying to save me. So you have been on here trying to save people, and you have been wasting your time at it.

Have you now changed your mind, and you are no longer here to try to save people? Tell that to God. Tell God you are wasting hours of his time, online talking to Atheists, when you could be out in the real world talking to more receptive people.

Radorth

Well then Angrilori, do explain how one man Paul talks about has obviously fallen away (turned over to Satan) and is still saved. And then explain how another has all his works "burned up" while he himself is saved.

The latter fits perfectly with Heb 6. The ground is not burned up by default, only fruit of the ground, i.e. thorns and thistles, are. (Yet another verse supporting the doctrine of purgatory).

You have not addressed whether Jesus will "lose none" or not, either.

In my experience, those who deny OSAS tend to believe any Christian who is not serving God in a zealous manner (prescribed by them) is somehow lost. Some live in constant fear of backsliding and "falling away" forever if they give in to the slightest temptation, miss church for a time, etc. I would say we need to be sober and diligent always, lest we are carried back into worldly pursuits and "dead works." Yet God is well able to recover them can and will recover the, though it may befruitless for us to try. At the very least we do NOT know that some Christians can be lost without stretching many, many scriptures and reading more into them than they actually say.

Rad

Radorth

How can he get a "worse damnation" than hell, unless you're the rare and thoughtfull skeptics who will stipulate there are degrees of hell and purgatory indicated by the NT? Yes the believer who has tasted all the things in Heb 6:4-5 is "better off" if s/he was ignorant. If Peter meant they were going to be permanently tormented in hell, he would be saying certain people are saved strictly by virtue of their ignorance- a ridiculous notion.

Not true. The lowly and sinful Rad has given up salvation enough times to know that God comes looking for me if he sees I've left the deadbolt on my heart unlocked.

And we all know what your agenda is- to assert the Bible is full of contradictions you can't reconcile. Why don't you get some sleep and answer the points I diligently made? We note you have plenty of time to preach and make assertions, which I have NOT done in kind.

Rad

Angrillori

Are you talking about Hymenaeus and Alexander? (1 Tim 1:20) They were turned over to satan only in that they were cast out from the fold so to speak, to fend off satan on their own, think 'throwing them to the wolves.' So sure hope that you're not basing your determination of their having fallen away entirely on the phrase 'turned over to satan.'

You may refer to the previous line though that these two had shipwrecked their faith, and rejected faith and a good conscience. So regardless of your poor quote, they did in fact fall away (as they say, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.) Which then leads us to examine what DID happen to them in the future?

(As an aside, using 1 Tim 1:20 to determine salvation or not opens quite a trick-bag. It is clearly HIS (Paul's) choice to 'turn them over to satan' (Tim 1:20). Are you saying my salvation status is in Paul's hands now? He can choose who is turned over to satan and who isn't? Geez, that's a pretty swell power!)

Please show me where these two are still saved. The bible I read only has some harsh things to say about them!

Alexander the Coppersmith (who may or may not be the aforementioned Alexander) Sounds like he's gonna get judged pretty harshly by God:

And Hymenaeus is only later mentioned when his blasphemy is likened to a cancer. (2 Tim 2:17)

(Wow, what would Paul think of whoever started the false doctrine of OSAS right now? Time for a biopsy perhaps?)

Once more, I have to question whether or not you can actually read. What is the antecedent for 'it' in Hebrews 6:8? Is 'it' referring to thorns and thistles (in which case god's grammar is atrocious as he should use 'they' but that's beside the point)? Or, is it referring to the land?

It's clearly referring to the land. So your assertion that the ground is not burned is FLATLY in contradiction to scripture, and I'm calling you on it.

Since it has been previously admitted that god's word never once explicitly stated you can't lose salvation, I took it as given that an explicit admission you can lose salvation trumped any and all implicit theoretical readings of scripture that say you can't.

But if you really want to go there, explain to me first how passages talking about how Jesus can defend me from satan's attacks have anything at all to do with my choice to turn away from Jesus? Or is free will gone once salvation comes into play?

And we all know god doesn't want us to fear! (neglecting the obvious logical fallacies as usual.)


It's this last bit I want to challenge. To any reading this thread, who is stretching farther, reading more into, and interpreting more thouroughly? OSAS? Or the explicit biblical admission you can fall away, that you can stop being in Jesus and he in you?

If you want OSAS to seem even more absurd, consider this, which idea should take precedence, the one stated in the bible, or the one that requires its adherents create an entirely new dimension called purgatory (like OSAS, something they'll always agree is never explicitly mentioned in the bible) to make their interpretation fit the words?

See Carrie's excellent post of verses, previously, or just read any verse on falling way. Read Hebrews chapter 6 and 10, read John chapter 15. I don't even have to line-item them up here with a paragraph of explanation try to make them fit my framework! Does that tell you something? All specifically and explicitly state that sometimes people in Jesus, with Jesus in them, can cease to be ni Jesus, or have Jesus in them and explicitly state that those who have come to a knowledge of the truth can still suffer the flames of hell.)

At what point will you realize you've been lied to about this OSAS? And then begin to question what else you've been told? Is your heart hardened? Or do you really think that all these OSAS justifications and machinations trump the explicit and literal word of god?

If you do honestly think that 'readnig into' some lines can trump what god actually wrote in terms of falling away, then you're more atheist than I am!!

Welcome to my world where man is lord, and what we can touch feel and do beats out what any old book says every day of the week!

Carrie

Rad, if you can reconcile the scriptures and make sense of them when you look at all of 'em, then good for you. I cannot. I don't see how it all makes sense. I don't see how you could never lose your salvation, yet have all those scriptures that seem to me to say that you can. What I think is that you're guaranteed to be saved, as long as you stay faithful to God. If you reject Jesus, then you are no longer a follower of Jesus, no longer a Christian, and no longer saved. Like I said, lots of Christians think that you can lose your salvation, so it's not like that something that only Atheists think. If you want to debate it, try convincing those Christians to your way of thinking. I'm sure you'd have more luck with them. That is, if you don't want them to keep on worrying about their salvation. See, I just can't see how scriptures such as "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" fit in with "once saved, always saved." I just do not GET your line of reasoning. That's it. I sure would have LIKED to believe that I could never lose my salvation! I'm sure lots of Christians would LIKE to believe that, but they don't believe it, because they can't see it.

Treacle Worshipper

And it seems that what we can gather from all this is that some people read the scriptures and see it one way, and some people read the scriptures and see it another way.
TW

Angrillori

Or, as I'm fond of saying, some people read scripture, and some read into scripture.

(Strange how those that do the first often become atheists, and those that stay theists are forced to do the latter.)

Who here has heard the: "well that's what it says, but this is what it means," line?

winstonjen

What, even the ones that contradict each other? Just HOW do you obey mutually exclusive commandments?

Godless Dave

You can't. That's the hook: the system is set up so it's impossible not to break the rules, making everyone a perpetual sinner. That way you can only be saved by Jesus.

Sabine Grant

As another approach to answer the OP...
Romans8: 38-39 " And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from his love. Death cannot and life cannot. The angels cannot and the demons cannot. Our fears for today, our worries about tomorrow, and even the powers of hell cannot keep God's love away. Whether we are high above the sky or in the deepest ocean, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God which is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord".

(From the New Living Translation)