Aradia

False practice is false hope.
Weak practice is a weak weapon.

BadBadBad

I can't believe I'm reading this. Do you have children? Have you ever looked into the eyes of a dying child? I have, and not you nor my wife nor anyone else will ever convince me that religion can provide any meaningful solace for even that glimpse of death. You can hope. You can study the Bible. You can convince yourself as deeply as it is possible that you have Jesus is in your heart. You can bow down on your knees and you can pray to Jesus like no other ever has before. But when that glimpse of death comes to your eyes, no hope, no prayers, and no God will give you solace. You'll face fear alone like you've never been alone before.

Life is all that is possible for us to understand. Life includes death, and we can only understand that as the end of life. Despite what you, the Bible, and all christians have said throughout history, life after death has no meaning. At best the faint hope of that can be a sugar coating in dealing with death. The death of a child in the arms of a loving God. That doesn't leave a sweet taste in my mouth.

Aradia

You've already made a mistake that loses the argument: I am not a christian.

I have faced death myself. Nothing so pittly as staring into someone else's eyes. I was hours from death with a ruptured spleen and massive internal bleeding. I have a foot-long scar to remind me of death. To remind me that I'll die.

I don't need to face the fear of death because I rise above the fear. Death is a natural part of life. That which lives, dies. Period. End of story. All the fear and worry in the world won't stop it. So why should I fear? I accept that I will die, and turn to dust, and fertilise the daisies.

Religion can help. But it must be practiced properly. It is a tool that one must learn how to use. Not every tool is right for every person.

I am a buddhist.

BadBadBad

I thought about this some more last night. I think we're missing the point. "What can replace Christianity?" "How can we develop philosophical belief and value that can allow us to have a joyful life without fear? How can we face diaster around us without religion? If there is no religion, can we have meaningful life? We live for what?" I've thought of some answers.

"How can we develop philosophical belief and value that can allow us to have a joyful life without fear?" I have beautiful twin daughters who were conceived 5 years ago in a test tube. No thanks to religion. One was poisoned by E.coli bacteria when she was two, and she was dying of anemia and kidney failure. When she was diagnosed, the doctor didn't come out and tell me there's nothing we can do, your daughter is going to die. She told me your daughter is going to get transfusions and kidney dialysis, and she's most likely going to live. No thanks to religion.

She didn't offer any certainties. Just her experience and the technology of a modern hospital. I didn't have to rely on prayer. I didn't have to put faith in God. The doctor gave me all the hope I needed. We already have one of the answers. It's called science. Compare it's results to the result of prayers for similar illnesses even within my generation? My father's?

So what does this answer? I have a meaningful life despite historic opposition by religion. Was religion for invetro fertilization? No. Was religion for the science that led to transfusions? No. Despite religion, my child was born. Despite religion, my child lived. Despite religion, I now have a meaningful life.

Aradia

That religion does not help you does not mean that religion cannot help others. Nobody has shown a need to "replace" christianity. And you have not replied to my rebuttal that religion can help people.

Sarpedon

When surgeons remove a dangerous tumor, they generally don't replace it with anything.

BadBadBad

Yes, I read your profile after I posted, but your comment about false and weak practice is a very typical christian thing to say, especially in response to the christian context of my post.

You mentioned you've come close to death. I submit to you that your own death is easier face than the death of a child you love. The closer you come to your own death, the easier it gets. I would think that for me, my fear would be for my family and not for myself. Each of us having only experienced one of the two, it might be a difficult thing for us to agree on though.

In any event, I would prefer the solace of medical science and life over faith and blind hope in afterlife. I would prefer the leadership in community activism rather than leadership in worship of false gods. I would prefer to build schools, community centers, parks, and businesses rather than churches. I would prefer pure charity as compared to tithing to a corrupt church. I would prefer peace rather than war over religious ideology. Like I said, I think we already have the answers, and religion has always sat opposite to the best answers.

Aradia

False analogy. Try again.

Aradia

*shrug* Typical or not, I only speak the truth. Not to be confused with the Truth.

I submit that neither of us can submit anything resembling a comparison of the two, making this entire paragraph moot.

However, I would submit that many atheists enjoy pointing out examples of christians who greatly fear death the closer to death they come. Conversely, many christians enjoy pointing out examples of atheists who grow to fear death so greatly, the closer they get, that they call out to god. Of course, the point that each group tries to prove is patently false. But the fact remains that some people fear death more as they get closer.

Corrupt and politicised religion has always sat opposite. The true teachings of the great teachers of the past do not sit opposite, but sit hand in hand.

War against religion is just as bad as war in the name of religion. Anti-theism is not peaceful.

BadBadBad

On the contrary, I've shown that replacing religion with science has allowed me to lead a meaningful life without fear along with millions of others. Two daughters were born to me through science, and both live today through science. So do you apparently. Religion strongly opposed both invetro fertilization and transfusions. Didn't it oppose AIDs research? It certainly opposes stem cell research. I think I've done a good job just on the issue of medical science and the life it creates to show that christianity in particular needs to be replaced. People have died due to opposition to medical science from religion, and many many more will continue to die.

Can I count on christianity or your religion to save my daughter and my family in the future? What hope can your religion offer me that I'll live a meaningful life? Without my daughter how meaningful can my life be? I think the answer is obviously no as compared to a more positive yes with the backing of history from medical science. You see even as a buddist, you can't just assert that and win the argument.