Liquidrage

I'll edit this and add more as I get time to find them. Note that I have no way of knowing if what I quote is exclusive to the 10th Anniv. Edition.

Hawking, Brief History of Time 10th Ed., pg 49
<strong> We should therefore cut them out of the model and say that time had a beginning at the big bang.
Many people do not like the idea that time has a begninning, probably because it smacks of divine intervention. There was therefore a number of attempts to avoid conclusion that there had been a big bang.</strong>

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: Liquidrage ]</p>

Ernest Sparks

"We should therefore cut them out of the model and say that time had a beginning at the big bang.

I guess we need to see what Hawking said ahead of this.

Liquidrage

He's referring to events before the big bang.

Here's the sentence directly before that,

"As far as we are concerened, events before the big bang can have no consequences, so they should not be of a scientific model of the universe."

This is in reference to the lack of predictability that would occur during a singularity.

John Paul

I'm a creationist who believes in the Big Bang....some statements made are generalizations in here. Plus it does prove scientifically the point at which God created the Universe. Not that hard to believe. Reminds me of a one line joke--

"God said it- and BANG it happened"

The Apostle

John Paul

Also...it does help understand things through the eyes of the Christian God. The Christian God has been around since early A.D.'s when the scientific evidence wasn't there. The characteristics were revealed and attributes established in writing in those days, but through scientific eyes today, it is still perffectly rational. Many of the attributes of God are able to explain things which science has no answer for. Also, God's word (Bible for those who don't know) has explained things consistently with what that of archeolgical findings of the modern world. Nebechanezer (sp.?)'s furnace, and many other Old Testament stories. This substantiates a plausible historical relevancy of this God's OT. OT Prophecies about Messiah fulfilled= Jesus Christ. This substantiates the basis for the New Testament. Thus when looking at world around you with a predilection for A higher being (not only Christian one) allows for totally rational explanation for world, Big Bang, atmosphere, morality (as well as converse-Newton's 3rd law- evil), higher intelligence, and anything else you care to explain for. Thus, the Big Bang is totally logical as part of the creation story in Genesis.

The Apostle

butswana

Anything that occured pre-big bang would have occured outside of this universe. Therefor it would not be observable in this universe. So, if goddidit, it wouldn't matter. It(god) could not effect anything in this universe post creation(big bang). So for all intents and purposes, god does not exist. Since we cannot observe something that is outside of this universe, anything outside of this universe is irrelivent.

Kvalhion

I'd have to agree with the theme of Butswana's post. If a god created the big bang, that would distance this God from Earth by a large margin. It would be hard for religious people to justify the belief that this God would have a hand in everyone's lives, since the universe is so vast and the Earth's place in it is minute, to say the least. Religious people want to cast importance unto themselves. You can't really be "God's favorite" if you give God credit for the big bang.

Seems to me creationists would rather have it the other way around. God created the Earth, and then just created the universe (maybe on a lucnh break) to have a place for the Earth to be in.

Kvalhion

I hate to burst your bubble, but if you are going to list a supernatural cause for the beginning of the universe, it could be anything. Taking a huge leap by assuming you know exactly what was the cause is very hard to believe.

You can understand all sorts of things through the eyes of any superbeing if that is your predetermined conclusion.


I thought you just said the xtian God has been around since the Big Bang?

How about this: "The characteristics were invented and attributes made up in writing in those days, and through scientific eyes today, it is just as absurd as it ever was."

For you to make such a statement is obviously your personal opinion because I highly doubt you are going to be able to provide anything other than dogma to support such an assertion. But who knows. Give it a shot and surprise me.

You don't find that just a little convenient? Besides, name one thing that is observable that science has no explanation for. Just one. Please don't cop out and state some foolish thing like "life".

That you name something specific like God to things you don't undertand is (to me at least) absurd wishful thinking.

Oh please. I am not a biblical scholar but even I know that is a load of crap.

Are you serious? How is it plausible to get two of every animal on the arc? Or to start humanity off with just two people a few thousand years ago? It may have plausible two thousand yearsa go when people thought the earth was flat and the earth revolved aroudn the sun. Fortunately we have come a long way since then and know better. Well, some of us do anyway.

Thanks for the laugh. Children, this is why you stay away from drugs. Anyhow, I am glad for you, John, that you have everything nice and sorted out in your mind to justify to yourself the world around you. It really seems like a nice fantasy. If only one bit of it were true...

lpetrich

Actually, the only sort of "God" that one can reasonably get out of the Big Bang would be a Deist sort of entity, which would be very unsatisfactory theologically. It's a sort of entity completely unconnected with humanity, one unlike the deities of most religions -- one whose interest in our Universe is like that of a kid blowing soap bubbles, which I had done in my childhood.

However, most skeptics and freethinkers and agnostics and atheists have avoided Voltaire's mistake about the Big Bang. Back in the 18th century he had tried to argue that fossils were something other than the remains of living things embedded in rocks, something which had seemed like clear evidence of Noah's Flood back then.

There is only one exception that I know of, and that is this statement of the views of a certain Huascar Terra do Valle:

<a href="http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/huascar.htm" target="_blank">http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/huascar.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/5301/rel-hoax.htm" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/5301/rel-hoax.htm</a>

graden1

posted by Ipetrich:
I'm not sure what you're getting at here; Voltaire died (I think) long before the Big Bang theory came along. And the Big Bang has nothing to do with fossils....



Grady