Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GeoTheo · 05-17-2003, 01:49 PM

When Christians act good and loving apparently it proves nothing.
When they act poorly apparently it invalidates Christianity.
Good thing I'm not a computer in a vintage sci-fi flick or else that logic would cause me to blow a gasket.

Starboy · 05-17-2003, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
When Christians act good and loving apparently it proves nothing.
When they act poorly apparently it invalidates Christianity.
Good thing I'm not a computer in a vintage sci-fi flick or else that logic would cause me to blow a gasket.

GeoTheo, I'm curious. Are you here to witness?

Sabine Grant · 05-17-2003, 01:57 PM

To clarify my position on whether or not people ought to be drawn to a particular religious faith because of how the followers of that faith behave, I believe that faith is a personal matter. The relationship is to be between God and the believer.

However, we are all influenced by other people's behavior. In Christianity, the " witness" is very important as to demonstrating faith by applying Christ's teaching. The credibility of christians is often evaluated by their behavior more than by their ability to preach. As christians we are held accountable for demonstrating Christlikeness which is a manifestation of Christ's presence in us.

I did not choose to entrust Christ with my life because christian folks were kind to me. Nor would I reject Christ because christians would be unkind to me. If I were to direct my spiritual path based on people, I would have been more influenced by Wiccans for example. ( I have never encountered negative and unproductive behaviors from any Wiccan I have socialized with)

A choice to a spiritual path has to be based on the ideology itself and whether or not the individual seeks and needs to have a relationship with the divine.

However again...we tend to be drawn to groups of people who do exhibit decent behaviors. A christian who is asked for the reason for any goodness he or she may exhibit will point to Christ as the reason. In fact, in this very forum, many non theists are critical of christianity because of how we fail to demonstrate what we preach!

The deepest understanding of faith is to realize that humans are going to fail other humans but God will not. Faith has to be relying on a personal relationship with God. No preaching and teaching crowds are needed for a person to feel a need to explore the divine. Steven Spielberg explored that theme in Amistadt where an african slave torn away by force from his land discovers Christ simply by looking at the pictures illustrating the Gospels in a Bible. He could neither read or write. He was exposed to the ferocity of the puritans armed with the same Bible. Despite of his exposure to human cruelty, this simple man could somehow understand the message of redemption. He had to entrust God not men to desire to know God.

If anyone comes to Christ because he builds expectations of perfection on another human being, he will be disappointed. Perfection in Christianity is Christ only.

At least this is how I attempt to live my faith. Not by pointing fingers in all directions and blaming God for it all. I attribute failures my own and others to human nature. Not to God's Nature. It also promotes a sense of grace towards other people. The same grace I benefit of as a follower of Christ.

livius drusus · 05-17-2003, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
When Christians act good and loving apparently it proves nothing.
When they act poorly apparently it invalidates Christianity.
Good thing I'm not a computer in a vintage sci-fi flick or else that logic would cause me to blow a gasket.

Who said that? Please provide a quote. Rhea's (and many other people's) entire point is that if one family is a reasonable standard by which to judge the veracity of a religion's truth claims, then one could just as easily pick a Yatesian horror show as a Richardian Brady Bunch episode. Both extrapolations are clearly ludicrous.

GeoTheo · 05-17-2003, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy
GeoTheo, I'm curious. Are you here to witness?

I'd tell you but I'm not sure you'd believe me.

Starboy · 05-17-2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
I'd tell you but I'm not sure you'd believe me.

Does it matter?

GeoTheo · 05-17-2003, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by livius drusus
Who said that? Please provide a quote. Rhea's (and many other people's) entire point is that if one family is a reasonable standard by which to judge the veracity of a religion's truth claims, then one could just as easily pick a Yatesian horror show as a Richardian Brady Bunch episode. Both extrapolations are clearly ludicrous.

It's not a ludicrous extrapolation. If I met a Guy who wore red shoes and he was the nicest, most decent and loving person I ever met and I attributed it to the shoes and said to myself-
"Boy, it must be the shoes! Where can I get a pair!" that would be a ludicrous extrapolation. But if this person is immersed in his faith as Whispers describes so that everything he does is an act of serving Christ and this in turn makes him an extremely decent, honest, genuine and loving person-to the degree that he really stands out from others- I would say there is somthing to it.
I think you need to look at cause and effect. What is different about this person that makes him stand out from others?
I think what makes them stand out is that they try to exemplify Christ living through them in thought word and deed.
When people do this they stand out and draw people to themselves. Much like Christ did.

lpetrich · 05-17-2003, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Infinity Lover
I'm actually inclined to think, that many people need their faith and devotion to God, to establish a level of commitment they otherwise wouldn't have been able to achieve. I think that's also primarily why the believing aspect ways so heavy within religion, and is regarded as a virtue in itself.

To me, that's the view that the religion business is desirable as the opium of the people, that it's Plato's Royal Lie in his Republic.

That could well be so, and if it is, then IMO it is best to be honest about it.

But some might argue that being honest about it is a Bad Thing, since otherwise, the lie will not work.

Sabine Grant · 05-17-2003, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
It's not a ludicrous extrapolation. If I met a Guy who wore red shoes and he was the nicest, most decent and loving person I ever met and I attributed it to the shoes and said to myself-
"Boy, it must be the shoes! Where can I get a pair!" that would be a ludicrous extrapolation. But if this person is immersed in his faith as Whispers describes so that everything he does is an act of serving Christ and this in turn makes him an extremely decent, honest, genuine and loving person-to the degree that he really stands out from others- I would say there is somthing to it.
I think you need to look at cause and effect. What is different about this person that makes him stand out from others?
I think what makes them stand out is that they try to exemplify Christ living through them in thought word and deed.
When people do this they stand out and draw people to themselves. Much like Christ did.

You are echoing what I explained in my previous post in terms of the importance of the christian " witness". It is a fact that as christians we claim to be living by and in the Spirit of God. Therefor our actions are under scrutiny. We can either be good " PR" or bad " PR" for Christ. However again, IMO, the deepest faith aknowledges that humans will fail humans but God will not.

I would much prefer to see a person embracing Christ thru a personal and private spiritual inquiry than because of any good PR any christian may demonstrate.

Yellum Notnef · 05-17-2003, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
It's not a ludicrous extrapolation. If I met a Guy who wore red shoes and he was the nicest, most decent and loving person I ever met and I attributed it to the shoes and said to myself-
"Boy, it must be the shoes! Where can I get a pair!" that would be a ludicrous extrapolation. But if this person is immersed in his faith as Whispers describes so that everything he does is an act of serving Christ and this in turn makes him an extremely decent, honest, genuine and loving person-to the degree that he really stands out from others- I would say there is somthing to it.
I think you need to look at cause and effect. What is different about this person that makes him stand out from others?
I think what makes them stand out is that they try to exemplify Christ living through them in thought word and deed.
When people do this they stand out and draw people to themselves. Much like Christ did.

Maybe Jesus wore red sandals?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-17-2003, 01:49 PM	#81
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	When Christians act good and loving apparently it proves nothing. When they act poorly apparently it invalidates Christianity. Good thing I'm not a computer in a vintage sci-fi flick or else that logic would cause me to blow a gasket.

05-17-2003, 01:57 PM	#83
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	To clarify my position on whether or not people ought to be drawn to a particular religious faith because of how the followers of that faith behave, I believe that faith is a personal matter. The relationship is to be between God and the believer. However, we are all influenced by other people's behavior. In Christianity, the " witness" is very important as to demonstrating faith by applying Christ's teaching. The credibility of christians is often evaluated by their behavior more than by their ability to preach. As christians we are held accountable for demonstrating Christlikeness which is a manifestation of Christ's presence in us. I did not choose to entrust Christ with my life because christian folks were kind to me. Nor would I reject Christ because christians would be unkind to me. If I were to direct my spiritual path based on people, I would have been more influenced by Wiccans for example. ( I have never encountered negative and unproductive behaviors from any Wiccan I have socialized with) A choice to a spiritual path has to be based on the ideology itself and whether or not the individual seeks and needs to have a relationship with the divine. However again...we tend to be drawn to groups of people who do exhibit decent behaviors. A christian who is asked for the reason for any goodness he or she may exhibit will point to Christ as the reason. In fact, in this very forum, many non theists are critical of christianity because of how we fail to demonstrate what we preach! The deepest understanding of faith is to realize that humans are going to fail other humans but God will not. Faith has to be relying on a personal relationship with God. No preaching and teaching crowds are needed for a person to feel a need to explore the divine. Steven Spielberg explored that theme in Amistadt where an african slave torn away by force from his land discovers Christ simply by looking at the pictures illustrating the Gospels in a Bible. He could neither read or write. He was exposed to the ferocity of the puritans armed with the same Bible. Despite of his exposure to human cruelty, this simple man could somehow understand the message of redemption. He had to entrust God not men to desire to know God. If anyone comes to Christ because he builds expectations of perfection on another human being, he will be disappointed. Perfection in Christianity is Christ only. At least this is how I attempt to live my faith. Not by pointing fingers in all directions and blaming God for it all. I attribute failures my own and others to human nature. Not to God's Nature. It also promotes a sense of grace towards other people. The same grace I benefit of as a follower of Christ.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.