Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Radcliffe Emerson · 05-22-2003, 04:42 PM

The really frightening thing about scientology is they are trying to gain influence in several governments around the world.
I guess they're no worse than Islam or Christianity though.
And on the Campbell thing, that shows you how much I paid attention to my own church.
I read the bible from cover to cover and did my own studies on its history, and archaeology, etc to come to my lack of belief.

Autonemesis · 05-22-2003, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dimossi, quoting hsi friend:
It is easy to find conflicts in the Bible if you only read sections and don't read the whole thing- that is how so many denominations of Christianity have started- through the interpretation of a section out of context, it must be read as a whole. This is also why so many non-believers have issues, they have never read the Bible or only read sections out of context. You should consider reading it sometime.

Ask him in which book(s) of the Bible is the missing context provided, which resolves the contradictions in Genesis 1 and 2. Is it in Numbers? Deuteronomy? Revelations?

Radcliffe Emerson · 05-23-2003, 11:04 AM

I disagree strongly. I took 2.5 years and read the bible from Genesis through Revelation, in order. I didn't skip around, I read straight through.
Reading the books in order makes all of the discrepancies, inconsistencies, and outright stupidities really obvious.
Jumping around is what makes it easy to mask that stuff.

111111 · 05-23-2003, 04:07 PM

Sadly, many of the Christian believers on this site do not realize that all of the Bible is metaphor and symbolism, images meant to help focus the mind of Man on the long and arduous journey it must undertake in order to grow closer to the Glory of God. Nothing in the Bible is to be taken at face value; it must all be analyzed for it's deeper mythic meanings. There's much wisdom in the Holy Bible, but only for those who learn to look beyond the surface.

Mageth · 05-23-2003, 04:21 PM

Sadly, many of the Christian believers on this site do not realize that all of the Bible is metaphor and symbolism, images meant to help focus the mind of Man on the long and arduous journey it must undertake in order to grow closer to the Glory of God. Nothing in the Bible is to be taken at face value; it must all be analyzed for it's deeper mythic meanings. There's much wisdom in the Holy Bible, but only for those who learn to look beyond the surface.

Then is God metaphor as well?

I think so. God is a metaphor for, or perhaps objectification of, the "mystery" of the universe many if not most humans appear to sense.

I think many if not most of the stories in the bible are metaphorical, but there's no extant "God" behind the metaphorical God of the bible. Just what we sense as mystery.

111111 · 05-24-2003, 07:22 AM

Mageth, if you will but take the time to peer beneath the Bible's skin, at the meat and bones beneath, you will find endless avenues of spiritual and occult truths waiting to be unveiled. I suggest you start by reading materials on the Kabbalah; fascinating reading that will change your life for the better.

Mageth · 05-24-2003, 09:19 AM

Mageth, if you will but take the time to peer beneath the Bible's skin,

I've done that.

at the meat and bones beneath,

A very good point. The "meat and bones" beneath the bible are the humans that wrote it, that created the metaphors and the God they portray.

you will find endless avenues of spiritual and occult truths waiting to be unveiled.

I found there bits and pieces of human understanding, metphorical motifs attempting to represent universal aspects of the human condition, that are found throughout the world's mythologies, and also in other sources.

(I approach any claim to spiritual "truth" in such matters with a healthy dose of skepticism. I'm not sure here what you're getting at with "occult.")

I suggest you start by reading materials on the Kabbalah; fascinating reading that will change your life for the better.

But why not also look in the Vedic scriptures, the Tao Te Ching, the I Ching, the poetry of the Sufi mystic Rumi, the Meso-American mythologies (e.g. Black Elk Speaks, the poets, the philosophers, and even the writings of modern science (esp. in Astrophysics, Physics, and Evolutionary Biology) such as those of Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking, Daniel Dennett, etc.?

I agree that the mystical, internal approach to "spirituality" and the mystery of the human condition is the better approach, preferable to the externally-imposed, handed-down-from-above approach that boxes and personifies what some sense into a limiting, purposeful GOD through "revelation", which is dictated and imposed on us by most of the world's dominant religions. As Carl Jung said, and this is perhaps a paraphrase, "the function of Religion is to protect us from an experience of God." And I don't believe that by "God", Jung meant any sort of personified, external being.

I believe that what one properly approaches by mystical means is not an external spirit intelligence that humans have personified and labeled "God", but instead an inner realization, an inner recognition of the mystery that is in you, your oneness with all being, with life, with nature. I believe what we sense and define as spirit, as something somehow separate but interacting with our physical manifestation, is in itself but a metaphor for an emergent property of our very natural brain. Our physical manifestation (life) is an emergent property of nature; our "spiritual" manifestation is an emergent property of the physical manifestation (life).

The universe, in turn, in which our particular, knowable manifestation of nature is contained, itself emerges from the unknown and perhaps unknowable. But whatever this unknown is, it is itself in turn natural. Efforts by religions (whether externally imposed or mystical) to define this unknown, to box it into a "god", at best create metaphors for the unknown, none of which are "true", and especially not exclusively true.

When approaching one of these metaphors for the unknowable, it's important to address them with "as if". It is "as if" the universe was a dream of Shiva, it is "as if" Jehovah spoke the world into existence, spun order from chaos. None of these, of course, can in reality truly define the unknowable; that's why it's a mistake to drop the "as if" and say "the universe is Shiva's dream" or "Jehovah did speak the world into existence." It is a mistake to interpret the poetry as prose.

111111 · 05-24-2003, 09:29 AM

Mageth:

I agree that all the mystical sources you've listed can of great use to the seeker of Truth. I meant in no way to slight or offend practitioners of those paths.

Also, I believe you have simply percieved God in an entirely naturalistic fashion; you need no props or icons to represent the Almighty; to you, He is existence itself, as filtered through the eyes of science.

And that, Mageth, is just as valid a path to Enlightenment as the road I trod.

GunnerJ · 05-24-2003, 11:58 AM

While this is an interesting discussion, it's not on topic for E&C. If the two of you would like to continue it, perhaps GRD would be a better venue.

-GunnerJ, E&C Mod

111111 · 05-24-2003, 12:11 PM

Western esotericism, especially alchemy, makes great use of Biblical metaphor and symbolism. Here are some sites that would be of great assistance to you in understanding how deep the Bible can go:

http://www.alchemylab.com

http://www.alchemywebsite.com

http://www.hermetic.com

http://www.hermetics.org

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05-22-2003, 04:42 PM	#31
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	The really frightening thing about scientology is they are trying to gain influence in several governments around the world. I guess they're no worse than Islam or Christianity though. And on the Campbell thing, that shows you how much I paid attention to my own church. I read the bible from cover to cover and did my own studies on its history, and archaeology, etc to come to my lack of belief.

05-23-2003, 11:04 AM	#33
Radcliffe Emerson Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: the dark side of Mars Posts: 1,309	I disagree strongly. I took 2.5 years and read the bible from Genesis through Revelation, in order. I didn't skip around, I read straight through. Reading the books in order makes all of the discrepancies, inconsistencies, and outright stupidities really obvious. Jumping around is what makes it easy to mask that stuff.

05-23-2003, 04:07 PM	#34
111111 Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: USA Posts: 35	Sadly, many of the Christian believers on this site do not realize that all of the Bible is metaphor and symbolism, images meant to help focus the mind of Man on the long and arduous journey it must undertake in order to grow closer to the Glory of God. Nothing in the Bible is to be taken at face value; it must all be analyzed for it's deeper mythic meanings. There's much wisdom in the Holy Bible, but only for those who learn to look beyond the surface.

05-23-2003, 04:21 PM	#35
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Sadly, many of the Christian believers on this site do not realize that all of the Bible is metaphor and symbolism, images meant to help focus the mind of Man on the long and arduous journey it must undertake in order to grow closer to the Glory of God. Nothing in the Bible is to be taken at face value; it must all be analyzed for it's deeper mythic meanings. There's much wisdom in the Holy Bible, but only for those who learn to look beyond the surface. Then is God metaphor as well? I think so. God is a metaphor for, or perhaps objectification of, the "mystery" of the universe many if not most humans appear to sense. I think many if not most of the stories in the bible are metaphorical, but there's no extant "God" behind the metaphorical God of the bible. Just what we sense as mystery.

05-24-2003, 07:22 AM	#36
111111 Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: USA Posts: 35	Mageth, if you will but take the time to peer beneath the Bible's skin, at the meat and bones beneath, you will find endless avenues of spiritual and occult truths waiting to be unveiled. I suggest you start by reading materials on the Kabbalah; fascinating reading that will change your life for the better.

05-24-2003, 09:19 AM	#37
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Mageth, if you will but take the time to peer beneath the Bible's skin, I've done that. at the meat and bones beneath, A very good point. The "meat and bones" beneath the bible are the humans that wrote it, that created the metaphors and the God they portray. you will find endless avenues of spiritual and occult truths waiting to be unveiled. I found there bits and pieces of human understanding, metphorical motifs attempting to represent universal aspects of the human condition, that are found throughout the world's mythologies, and also in other sources. (I approach any claim to spiritual "truth" in such matters with a healthy dose of skepticism. I'm not sure here what you're getting at with "occult.") I suggest you start by reading materials on the Kabbalah; fascinating reading that will change your life for the better. But why not also look in the Vedic scriptures, the Tao Te Ching, the I Ching, the poetry of the Sufi mystic Rumi, the Meso-American mythologies (e.g. Black Elk Speaks, the poets, the philosophers, and even the writings of modern science (esp. in Astrophysics, Physics, and Evolutionary Biology) such as those of Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawking, Daniel Dennett, etc.? I agree that the mystical, internal approach to "spirituality" and the mystery of the human condition is the better approach, preferable to the externally-imposed, handed-down-from-above approach that boxes and personifies what some sense into a limiting, purposeful GOD through "revelation", which is dictated and imposed on us by most of the world's dominant religions. As Carl Jung said, and this is perhaps a paraphrase, "the function of Religion is to protect us from an experience of God." And I don't believe that by "God", Jung meant any sort of personified, external being. I believe that what one properly approaches by mystical means is not an external spirit intelligence that humans have personified and labeled "God", but instead an inner realization, an inner recognition of the mystery that is in you, your oneness with all being, with life, with nature. I believe what we sense and define as spirit, as something somehow separate but interacting with our physical manifestation, is in itself but a metaphor for an emergent property of our very natural brain. Our physical manifestation (life) is an emergent property of nature; our "spiritual" manifestation is an emergent property of the physical manifestation (life). The universe, in turn, in which our particular, knowable manifestation of nature is contained, itself emerges from the unknown and perhaps unknowable. But whatever this unknown is, it is itself in turn natural. Efforts by religions (whether externally imposed or mystical) to define this unknown, to box it into a "god", at best create metaphors for the unknown, none of which are "true", and especially not exclusively true. When approaching one of these metaphors for the unknowable, it's important to address them with "as if". It is "as if" the universe was a dream of Shiva, it is "as if" Jehovah spoke the world into existence, spun order from chaos. None of these, of course, can in reality truly define the unknowable; that's why it's a mistake to drop the "as if" and say "the universe is Shiva's dream" or "Jehovah did speak the world into existence." It is a mistake to interpret the poetry as prose.

05-24-2003, 09:29 AM	#38
111111 Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: USA Posts: 35	Mageth: I agree that all the mystical sources you've listed can of great use to the seeker of Truth. I meant in no way to slight or offend practitioners of those paths. Also, I believe you have simply percieved God in an entirely naturalistic fashion; you need no props or icons to represent the Almighty; to you, He is existence itself, as filtered through the eyes of science. And that, Mageth, is just as valid a path to Enlightenment as the road I trod.

05-24-2003, 11:58 AM	#39
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	While this is an interesting discussion, it's not on topic for E&C. If the two of you would like to continue it, perhaps GRD would be a better venue. -GunnerJ, E&C Mod

05-24-2003, 12:11 PM	#40
111111 Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: USA Posts: 35	Western esotericism, especially alchemy, makes great use of Biblical metaphor and symbolism. Here are some sites that would be of great assistance to you in understanding how deep the Bible can go: http://www.alchemylab.com http://www.alchemywebsite.com http://www.hermetic.com http://www.hermetics.org

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