beth

I consider the Atkin's Diet as something that is harmful. I went on it in December. I went two months with almost no carbs(I broke off Atkins and went extreme, about five carbs a day)
I became severely depressed and eventually couldn't eat for a week at a time. I regained control of myself. I can now ingest a few carbs a day (about 45), still can eat no sugar or will become severely ill, and I eat lotsa dairy.

The smell associated with people on low carb diets is from the body going into ketosis. Thankfully I never was told of an odor. Vanity would have caused me to immediately eat more carbs to eliminate that side effect.

I know this type of diet has really screwed me up. I get sick if I eat just a piece of bread because,I think, of the carbs in it. I am now slowly trying to reintroduce more carbs into my diet every week.

Nuno Figueira

Insulin?
ummmmm, then to gain wieght we need a caloric surplus? ummmmm....we might be on to something here.

Exactly.

No one but vegetarians and red meat-o-phobics need iron supplementation, in my opinion.

Yes, the take home message is, get under that bar and squat (ehhh..bodybuider joke I guess). Anyway, milk is an extremely overrated food. You can get enough calcium from vegetables.

Oh I believe you. Sometimes it gets hard to get a decent amount of carbs from veggies. Legumes are also handy and I do eat grains. Keep in mind that I'm not really a fan of keto diets, I just enjoy these discussions and you sounded like someone who would put up a nice fight.


I like this. Sounded good, I might use it in my signature. But seriously though, they really are out to get us....

No worries.

King Rat

What is with the "smell" comments? I've never heard (smelled) anything about it. I have quite a few friends on the Atkins diet and they have no associated odor. Smells like b.s to me

I'll tell you what, now that I'm past strict induction, I can now smell sugar a mile away. I was in the grocery store and the smell from the candy aisle was nearly overwhelming. I think it was the Jelly Bellies in the bulk section I hate candy, but the smell of the sugar was intoxicating.

I was a vegetarian for a year, when I realized how crappy it made me feel I stopped. The first piece of meat I ate made me puke. Your body isn't screwed up, you'll get over it.

Nuno Figueira

Well, al recent research is pointing to calorie restriction as the mean to extend life span and improve health. It seems that after almost two million years living the hunther gatherer way, that is, periods of famine intervaled with abundance, we might be better suited to these feeding paterns than most think. I have no ideia what you mean with "suffered the worst from nutritional deficiency diseases", again this is a very bold statement and I must ask for some kind of evidence again.

Nuno Figueira

"The administrator has specified that you can only edit messages for 120 minutes after you have posted. This limit has expired, so you must contact the administrator to make alterations on your message."

This one is new to me. Anyone can explain what's the reasoning behind this??

Torben

I think he's referring to the lot. You've run into the infamous 'Well-I-tried-it-and-I-know-it-works' kind of deaf person.


I must say Godot that although I agree with you and admire your knowledge of physiology, this may be right. Calcium is not working as an acid, but calcified bone material is calciumhydroxyapatite, the anion of which is a combination of hydroxide ions and phosphate ions (I don't remember the stoichiometry). Acid will drive the solubility reaction towards dissolvement due to the reaction of hydroxide and phosphate with protons. Thus, acid can deteriorate bone (as for teeth).

alek0

Well, your opinion is wrong, and there are other sources of iron than red meat. I've been vegeterian for 17 years and my iron is just fine. As can also be seen from the literature, balanced vegeterian diet does not necessarily requre iron supplementation.
Have a look at, for example Am-J-Clin-Nutr. 2002 Jul; 76(1): 100-6 - no significant difference in low iron status was found when comparing vegans to omnivores.

Could you back up this statement? I would really like to see studies on high antinutrient content in whole grains.

As for colon cancer, there is data on red meat consumption and colon cancer. There are data for other cancers as well, here is for lung cancer: Lung-Cancer. 2001 Oct; 34(1): 37-46 (Consumption of red meat, was associated with an increased risk of lung cancer even after controlling for total fat, saturated fat, cholesterol, fruit, yellow-green vegetable consumption and smoking history, while yellow-green vegetables are associated with a decreased risk of lung cancer.)

Also, could you address the issue of osteoporosis risk and high protein intake? High protein intake is identified as risk factor for osteoporosis (see Food-Chem-Toxicol. 2000 Feb-Mar; 38(2-3): 237-53.).

As for diabetes and high carb diet, you can reduce amount of bread, pasta etc. without doing some version of Atkins.

So says Atkins. Can you back up this statement?

Godot

The area on caloric restriction is certainly a contentious one. The limited evidence available certainly suggests differently than our current understanding of energy requirements. Until more conclusive evidence comes to pass, my views must remain consistent with the current consensus of opinion.
The hunter-gatherer ecosystem relied on the "feast or famine" principle; they were opportunistic feeders. Their diet was largely dependent upon availability, accessibility, and convenience of foodstuffs. Life span was low, major causes of death were either starvation or trauma. Malnutrition is implicit in starvation. Ergo nutritional deficiency diseases (assuming they lived long enough for some of them to develop). I can only offer a basic undergraduate nutrition textbook to substantiate this so far (check out Understanding Nutrition Whitney & Rolfes, 2002). I'll check out the resources I have access through the uni and get back to you on this one.

Nuno Figueira

ops, double posting, sorry.

Nuno Figueira

While I do concede that with carefull planning you might get over this, there are plenty stating exactly the opposite:

This one even brings the issue of phytates (one of the most researched anti nutrient present in grains):

Iron absorption: no intestinal adaptation to a high-phytate diet.

Brune M, Rossander L, Hallberg L.

Department of Medicine II, University of Goteborg, Sweden.

The present study examined the possibility that a high bran and phytate intake over a long period would induce changes in the intestines or its microflora leading to a reduction of the inhibitory effect of dietary phytates on iron absorption. Such changes might occur in vegetarians and populations in developing countries with a usually very high dietary intake of phytates. The inhibitory effect of bran on Fe absorption was compared between a group of strict vegetarians with a regular high phytate intake and a control group by use of wheat rolls with and without bran labeled with 55Fe and 59Fe. The average individual decrease of the Fe absorption from adding the bran was 92 and 93% in the two groups, respectively. No intestinal adaptation to a high phytate intake could be observed. This finding has wide nutritional implications.

And this one:

Moving toward a plant-based diet: are iron and zinc at risk?

Hunt JR.

USDA-ARS Grand Forks Human Nutrition Research Center, ND 58202, USA.

With reduced intake of meat and increased intake of phytate-containing legumes and whole grains, movement toward plant-based diets reduces dietary iron and zinc absorption. Although vegetarians have lower iron stores, adverse health effects of lower iron and zinc absorption have not been demonstrated with varied, plant-based diets consumed in developed countries. Improved assessment methods and monitoring are needed to detect and prevent possible iron and zinc deficiency with plant-based diets.



Iron deficiency in Europe.

Hercberg S, Preziosi P, Galan P.

Unite de Surveillance et d'Epidemiologie Nutritionnelle, InVS/Institut Scientifique et Technique de la Nutrition et de l'Alimentation, CNAM, Paris, France. hercberg@vcnam.cnam.fr

In Europe, iron deficiency is considered to be one of the main nutritional deficiency disorders affecting large fractions of the population, particularly such physiological groups as children, menstruating women and pregnant women. Some factors such as type of contraception in women, blood donation or minor pathological blood loss (haemorrhoids, gynaecological bleeding...) considerably increase the difficulty of covering iron needs. Moreover, women, especially adolescents consuming low-energy diets, vegetarians and vegans are at high risk of iron deficiency. Although there is no evidence that an absence of iron stores has any adverse consequences, it does indicate that iron nutrition is borderline, since any further reduction in body iron is associated with a decrease in the level of functional compounds such as haemoglobin. The prevalence of iron-deficient anaemia has slightly decreased in infants and menstruating women. Some positive factors may have contributed to reducing the prevalence of iron-deficiency anaemia in some groups of population: the use of iron-fortified formulas and iron-fortified cereals; the use of oral contraceptives and increased enrichment of iron in several countries; and the use of iron supplements during pregnancy in some European countries. It is possible to prevent and control iron deficiency by counseling individuals and families about sound iron nutrition during infancy and beyond, and about iron supplementation during pregnancy, by screening persons on the basis of their risk for iron deficiency, and by treating and following up persons with presumptive iron deficiency. This may help to reduce manifestations of iron deficiency and thus improve public health. Evidence linking iron status with risk of cardiovascular disease or cancer is unconvincing and does not justify changes in food fortification or medical practice, particularly because the benefits of assuring adequate iron intake during growth and development are well established. But stronger evidence is needed before rejecting the hypothesis that greater iron stores increase the incidence of CVD or cancer. At present, currently available data do not support radical changes in dietary recommendations. They include all means for increasing the content of dietary factors enhancing iron absorption or reducing the content of factors inhibiting iron absorption. Increased knowledge and increased information about factors may be important tools in the prevention of iron deficiency in Europe.

This one also shows enhanced insulin sensitivity, which is a good thing obviously.

Low iron status and enhanced insulin sensitivity in lacto-ovo vegetarians.

Hua NW, Stoohs RA, Facchini FS.

Department of Medicine, Division of Nephrology, San Francisco General Hospital, San Francisco, CA, USA.

The efficacy of insulin in stimulating whole-body glucose disposal (insulin sensitivity) was quantified using direct methodology in thirty lacto-ovo vegetarians and in thirty meat-eaters. All subjects were adult, lean (BMI <23 kg/m2), healthy and glucose tolerant. Lacto-ovo vegetarians were more insulin sensitive than meat-eaters, with a steady-state plasma glucose (mmol/l) of 4.1 (95 % CI 3.5, 5.0) v. 6.9 (95 % CI 5.2, 7.5; respectively. In addition, lacto-ovo vegetarians had lower body Fe stores, as indicated by a serum ferritin concentration (microg/l) of 35 (95 % CI 21, 49) compared with 72 (95 % CI 45, 100) for meat-eaters To test whether or not Fe status might modulate insulin sensitivity, body Fe was lowered by phlebotomy in six male meat-eaters to levels similar to that seen in vegetarians, with a resultant approximately 40 % enhancement of insulin-mediated glucose disposal Our results demonstrate that lacto-ovo vegetarians are more insulin sensitive and have lower Fe stores than meat-eaters. In addition, it seems that reduced insulin sensitivity in meat-eaters is amenable to improvement by reducing body Fe. The latter finding is in agreement with results from animal studies where, no matter how induced, Fe depletion consistently enhanced glucose disposal.
The impact of vegetarianism on some haematological parameters.

Obeid R, Geisel J, Schorr H, Hubner U, Herrmann W.

Department of Clinical Chemistry, University Hospital of Saarland, Homburg, Germany.

OBJECTIVE: Subjects adopting a vegetarian diet are liable to vitamin B12 and iron deficiencies. Co-existing vitamin B12 and iron deficiencies may give an equivocal haematological picture, which may, in turn, delay making an early diagnosis. The current work was undertaken to investigate some haematological parameters in relation to vitamin B12 and iron status in vegetarians. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: Twenty-nine vegans, 64 lacto- and lacto-ovo-vegetarians, in addition to 20 occasional meat eaters, were enrolled for this study. The total group included 49 males and 64 females aged [mean (SD) = 46(15) yr]. Complete blood count, methylmalonic acid (MMA), homocysteine (HCY), ferritin, and transferrin concentrations and percentage transferrin saturation were assayed, using conventional methods. RESULTS: Vegans displayed the highest MMA and HCY levels (median MMA = 708 nmol L(-1); HCY = 12.8 micromol L(-1)). A lower lymphocyte count and a higher mean corpuscular volume (MCV) were found in vegans compared with lacto- or lacto-ovo-vegetarians (median = 1.51 x 10(9) vs. 1.83 x 10(9) L(-1); 92 vs. 89 fL, respectively). Vitamin B12-deficient subjects in the higher range of transferrin saturation percentage had higher MCV than vitamin B12-deficient subjects in the lower transferrin saturation range (mean MCV = 92 vs. 89 fL). A lower platelet count was found in the highest quartile of MMA (mean = 211 x 10(9) L(-1)) and in the highest quartile of HCY (mean = 215 x 10(9) L(-1)), compared with the other quartiles. Lower lymphocyte and platelet counts and higher MCV were found in subjects with elevated MMA and HCY, compared to those with normal metabolites. Factors that explained the variations in MCV were red blood cell count, ferritin, transferrin saturation, and methylmalonic acid levels. CONCLUSION: vitamin B12 and iron status were compromised by a vegetarian diet. Variations in mean corpuscular volume were determined by iron and vitamin B12 status. Lower lymphocyte and platelet count were accompanied by metabolic evidence that indicated vitamin B12 deficiency.

Dietary intake and iron status of Australian vegetarian women.

Ball MJ, Bartlett MA.

School of Nutrition and Public Health, Deakin University, Burwood, Australia. mhbkr@deakin.edu.au

BACKGROUND: Despite the possible overall health benefits of a vegetarian diet, there is concern that some vegetarians and infrequent meat eaters, particularly females, may have inadequate iron status because of low or no heme-iron intakes. OBJECTIVE: The objective was to investigate the nutritional intake and iron status of vegetarian women. DESIGN: The nutritional intakes of 50 free-living vegetarian women aged 18-45 y and 24 age-matched omnivorous control women were assessed by using 12-d weighed dietary records. Iron status was assessed by measuring hemoglobin and serum ferritin concentrations. RESULTS: There was no significant difference between mean (+/-SD) daily iron intakes of vegetarians and omnivores (10.7 +/- 4.4 and 9.9 +/- 2.9 mg, respectively), although heme-iron intakes were low in the vegetarians. Vegetarians had significantly lower intakes of protein (P < 0.01), saturated fat (P < 0.01), and cholesterol (P < 0.001), and significantly higher intakes of dietary fiber (P < 0.001) and vitamin C (P < 0.05). Mean serum ferritin concentrations were significantly lower (P = 0.025) in vegetarians (25.0 +/- 16.2 microg/L) than in omnivores (45.5 +/- 42.5 microg/L). However, similar numbers of vegetarians (18%) and omnivores (13%) had serum ferritin concentrations <12 microg/L, which is a value often used as an indicator of low iron stores. Hemoglobin concentrations were not significantly different. CONCLUSION: It is important that both vegetarian and omnivorous women maintain an adequate iron status and follow dietary practices that enhance iron absorption.

Nonheme-iron absorption, fecal ferritin excretion, and blood indexes of iron status in women consuming controlled lactoovovegetarian diets for 8 wk.

Hunt JR, Roughead ZK.

US Department of Agriculture, Agricultural Research Service, Grand Forks Human Nutrition Research Center, ND 58202-9034, USA. jhunt@gfhnrc.ars.usda.gov

BACKGROUND: The characteristics of vegetarian diets suggest that these diets would have lower dietary iron bioavailability than nonvegetarian diets, but there is no evidence of iron deficiency in vegetarians. OBJECTIVE: We evaluated the responsiveness of serum and fecal ferritin to differences in iron absorption from controlled lactoovovegetarian and nonvegetarian diets. DESIGN: Twenty-one women aged 20-42 y with serum ferritin concentrations from 6 to 149 microg/L consumed lactoovovegetarian and nonvegetarian weighed diets for 8 wk each (crossover design). The diets differed substantially in meat and phytic acid contents. Nonheme-iron absorption was measured from the whole diets after 4 wk by using extrinsic 59Fe and whole-body counting. Ferritin in extracts of fecal composites and in serum was measured by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay the last 2 wk of each diet. RESULTS: Nonheme-iron absorption was less from the lactoovovegetarian diet than from the nonvegetarian diet (1.1% compared with 3.8%; P < 0.01; n = 10). Diet did not affect hemoglobin, transferrin saturation, erythrocyte protoporphyrin, or serum ferritin. Substantially less fecal ferritin was excreted with the lactoovovegetarian diet than with the nonvegetarian diet (1.1 compared with 6.0 microg/d, respectively; P < 0.01; n = 21). CONCLUSIONS: This research indicates 1) 70% lower nonheme-iron absorption from a lactoovovegetarian diet than from a nonvegetarian diet; 2) an associated decrease in fecal ferritin excretion, suggesting partial physiologic adaptation to increase the efficiency of iron absorption; and 3) an insensitivity of blood iron indexes, including serum ferritin, to substantial differences in dietary iron absorption for 8 wk.

This one clearly shows that non-heme iron is not absorbed like heme one.

Nutrient intake and iron status of Australian male vegetarians.

Wilson AK, Ball MJ.School of Nutrition and Public Health, Deakin University, Melbourne, Australia.

OBJECTIVE: The study was designed to investigate the iron intake and status of Australian, male vegetarians aged between 20 and 50 y. DESIGN: Cross-sectional comparison of male vegetarians and age/sex matched omnivores. SETTING: Free-living community subjects. SUBJECTS: 39 ovolactovegetarians, 10 vegans and 25 omnivores were recruited by local advertisement. OUTCOME MEASURES: A 12-d semiquantitative dietary record to assess iron and zinc intake. Iron status was assessed by measurement of serum ferritin and haemoglobin concentrations. RESULTS: Mean (s.d.) daily iron intakes of both the ovolactovegetarians (20.4 (7.7) mg/d) and vegans (22.9 (6.2) mg/d), were significantly higher than the omnivores' intake of 15.8 (4.5) mg/d. Ovo-lactovegetarians and vegans had significantly (P < 0.001 and P < 0.05, respectively) lower serum ferritin concentrations than omnivores: mean (s.d.): 64 (46.9), 65 (49.9) and 121 (72.5) ng/ml, respectively. Significantly more ovolactovegetarians and vegans than omnivores had serum ferritin concentrations below 25 ng/ml and below 12 ng/ml (P < 0.05). A higher proportion of omnivores had concentrations above 200 ng/ml (P < 0.05). The differences in serum ferritin concentrations between the vegetarians and omnivores remained significant even after exclusion of iron supplement users. CONCLUSION: Australian male vegetarians had iron intakes higher than those of omnivores and above recommended levels, but their iron status was significantly lower.

Sure, this is the most comprehensive review on the subject I ever found. It's 55 pages so it should keep you buzy for a while, if you're really interested in it.

Cereal grains and anti nutrient content


Here are two abstracts from The American journal of nutrition, showing INCREASED bone mass resulting from high protein diets(one as a attachment). Essentially, scientists took a huge leap of faith by assuming that the increased calcium excretion resulting from a high protein intake led to loss of bone mass.

“Getting enough calcium is essential for building and maintaining healthy bones, but new research suggests that protein may also play an important role in preventing bone loss.
The relationship between protein and bone density is not clear-cut. Some studies have detected a decreased risk of bone loss and fracture in people who consume high levels of protein. But other studies have linked protein consumption to an increased risk of fracture, especially in people who consume high levels of animal protein.
During a 3-year study of nearly 350 elderly men and women who were taking calcium citrate and malate and vitamin D supplements, investigators found that bone mineral density increased most in people whose diets contained the most protein. Whether protein came from mainly animal or plant sources did not affect the increase in bone density.
Bone mineral density may be improved by increasing protein intake in many older men and women, as long as they meet the currently recommended intakes of calcium and vitamin D.
Dietary protein was linked to increased bone density only in people who were taking supplements. Protein intake did not have a noticeable effect on bones in study participants who were assigned an inactive placebo pill. Additional research is needed to see whether protein improves bone density in older people who get all their calcium and vitamin D from dietary sources, not supplements.
The more protein a person eats, the more calcium is excreted in urine. Excess protein intake should be bad for bone. But the results of the study suggest that concerns about protein intake are probably unfounded,
You need both calcium and protein for bone, and if your diet has plenty of both, then your bones are likely to be in better condition than if you are short on one or both of these nutrients.
This study and other recently published research "go a long way toward refuting" concerns that animal protein is bad for bones.
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition April 2002;75:609-610, 773-779
“

Also see attached jpeg taken from the American journal of nutrition, March 2003 issue I believe. The high protein and bone loss is most likely one more mistake, along with the high fat intake causes CVD and other myths like that.


Sure, but you will have higher insulin levels comparing to a low to moderate carb diet. All in all, vegetarians frequently have a more carefull aproach to their diets than most modern omnivores, who essentially eat any kind of crap without even questioning about what it might do to then in the medium or long run, and as far as I'm concerned this is why, despite having a diet that goes against a couple of million years of evolution, they usually show better health indicators profiles than most meat eaters.

From an ex vegetarian, I recommmend reading trough


Beyondveg

It is writen by ex vegetarians and can be really helpfull in avoiding the many pitfalls presented by a true vegetarian diet.

Sure, fruit will hardly give you anything, concerning antioxidants and vitamins, that vegetables won't.

To top it off, a quote from the latest issue of JAMA:

"
Conclusions There is insufficient evidence to make recommendations for or against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among participants older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets of 20 g/d or less of carbohydrates. Among the published studies, participant weight loss while using low-carbohydrate diets was principally associated with decreased caloric intake and increased diet duration but not with reduced carbohydrate content. "

JAMA. 2003;289:1837-1850.