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Old 03-28-2003, 06:53 AM   #11
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I agree with most other posters, it depends on what you really mean, if you mean the God of the literal bible, then no, I wouldn't worship him, any God being that commits genocide is IMO not worth my time.

However if you mean the generally known, fluffly "I love you, you love me" God, that Christians actually think exists. I would have a lot of questions, but really in the end I would would probably be about as happy as I am now, I really don't see my life changing too much, other than spending a lot less time here .

Questions for you:
What would it honestly take for you not to believe?

Are you a biblical literalist? If so, how do you reconcile the Creation story?
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Old 03-28-2003, 07:00 AM   #12
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There are few things as macabre and despicable as YHWH. I would be terrified, disgusted, and immensely saddened.
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Old 03-28-2003, 07:38 AM   #13
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To be the Judeo-Christian god as you describe it, it would have both to be perfect in every respect, and to have ordered or otherwise caused all or most of the events described in the OT, inter alia.

Since I do not have any understanding what it amounts to, for such an agent to be good, as the word "good" is used in English, I would simply not know whether to be happy or not.
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Old 03-28-2003, 08:12 AM   #14
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Quote:
xian:

Probably most atheists here have a criteria for "what it would take" to believe in God. Let us define God as the Greatest Possible Being, possessing attributes of infiniteness, perfection, eternality, etc.
I can't really answer your question because your definition is unintelligable.

Greatest Possible Being: greatest in what sense? If you mean most morally admirable, I think that I am morally better than the God described in the Bible--though perhaps I just don't have enough power to become as corrupt as Yaweh--and I can easily think of dozens of people who are even better still. If you mean most powerful, then in what sense? What is more powerful: an atomic bomb or a printing press? It depends on what you mean by power. Or do you mean something else altogether?

Infinite, perfect, and eternal are abstract concepts. I can't conceive of any actual being possessing such traits. They are also vague. Does infinite refer to size? If so, then how could there be room for us if God takes up infinite space? What does perfect mean? To me, a God who destroys most life on Earth because he's mad doesn't even rate close to perfect, so perfect by what standard? What does eternal mean? Eternity is an abstract concept that we have no way of understanding in concrete terms. And what do you mean by et cetera.? You assume too much when you just say "etc." as though we know what other qualities comprise your greatest possible being.

God, as you've defined him, is completely unintelligable. Your definition doesn't include a single concrete quality that a human being could evaluate. Thus, there is no way to evaluate whether any particular entity meets even part of your definition of God. A great being could appear before me in a tower of flame and say in a booming voice that he is God and he wrote the Bible, and cause the sun to blink on and off as a demonstration of his power. How would I know that such a being was the greatest possible being? Perfect? Infinite? Eternal? Etc.?

I can't know that God is eternal because I can't understand what it means to be eternal. Perhaps there is a god, and perhaps this god does possess qualities that we humans can not understand. But if that is the case, all we can say is that we don't understand that aspect of the god. It is meaningless to say that God is X if we don't really know what it means to be X.
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Old 03-28-2003, 08:42 AM   #15
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I believe the God of the Bible is logically incoherent in a number of ways. As a result, proof of this specific God's existance would cause me to believe that the Bible is in some way flawed. The God, I would see and accept. The Bible, however, and specifically the OT, I would consider a corrupted source of information.
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Old 03-28-2003, 08:42 AM   #16
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It's an odd question. If this great God exists, it should be obvious that it would be a great thing. Faith would be totally unecessary, because you would really know about there being a benevolent being at your side. That's because of the way it's defined, but no such thing has happened to me. That's the whole point surely? That the true God should be obvioulsly the one that you would love? This God is supposed to be all-powerful, remember? This God should inspire you in life, surely?

That's the thing - it's not there. What inspires me is very earthly. Believing in mystical garbage is not much use.
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Old 03-28-2003, 08:59 AM   #17
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Default Re: Post Hoc variation of the "What Would It Take" question

Ok, I'll answer. But first, while we're speculating about this hypothetical revelation from God, let's speculate what God might want to talk to you about. What do we know about first hand revelations from God? Well, let's go to the OT to get some ideas. I know, you christians, don't like to go there, but humor me for a minute. Aaaaah, what do we find? Murder. God might well want us to murder. Not just murder but mass murder even genocide. Yes, I believe you left that attribute off your list of attributes for your GPB. The greatest possible mass murderer.

Well that might taint my point of view about this revelation of a GPB. God is great? Well, not really.

Now for the question you promised me. If your so called GPB revealed himself to you, and like in the OT, he point blank asked you to murder, honestly, what would be your reaction? Perhaps he just wants you to butcher your child, merely to show your admiration and loyalty. Surely you'd see beyond the horror as seen through your human existence. Surely you wouldn't deny God his burnt offering.

And he shall kill it on the side of the altar northward before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar. And he shall cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat: and the priest shall lay them in order on the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar: But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

Perhaps he'd like you to become a terrorist and fly planes into buildings. Surely you'd see that his morality is the ultimate authority. Surely you could do it with the power and knowledge of his loving almighty spirit by your side. In this Bible based hypothetical, God wants you to be a mass murderer! Surely, with the actual revelation of greatness and glory of god, you'd realize it's all true. Your human knowledge and morality is meaningless. You are standing before your almighty God. Will you be his servant, or will you risk eternal damnation, gnashing of teeth, and the furnace of hell by rejecting God? Who are you, mere human, to reject the GPB?

What say you xian? Would you think it an illusion? Perhaps you might suddenly find yourself believing in our invisible pink unicorn. Would you think he was the devil? How could you identify this entity as God, IPU, or devil, and what would you think about a revelation from god similar to what is already revealed about God and by God in the OT?

I don't mean to be rude or insulting, but we're talking about God and the Bible. Sometimes, it's just a little offensive by definition.
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Old 03-28-2003, 09:09 AM   #18
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Without nitpicking; if the god of the Bible made itself apparent and obvious to me, I would be glad that he existed. I couldn't lose. I'd do what He said to do and then I'd live forever in total happiness. There'd be nothing really significant to worry about. No bills, no retirement planning, no saving for college for my kids, I could even purposefully sin on occasion and know for sure that I'd been forgiven. What's not to like?
All the toils and responsibilities of this life would indeed be rendered pretty meaningless.
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Old 03-28-2003, 09:15 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lamma
Without nitpicking; if the god of the Bible made itself apparent and obvious to me, I would be glad that he existed. I couldn't lose. I'd do what He said to do and then I'd live forever in total happiness. There'd be nothing really significant to worry about. No bills, no retirement planning, no saving for college for my kids, I could even purposefully sin on occasion and know for sure that I'd been forgiven. What's not to like?
All the toils and responsibilities of this life would indeed be rendered pretty meaningless.
Toils, responsibilities, sin, and you forgot knowledge, science, logic, and morality. I would think happiness would also be rendered meaningless as well.
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Old 03-28-2003, 09:34 AM   #20
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Default Re: Post Hoc variation of the "What Would It Take" question

Quote:
Originally posted by xian
he will reveal himself to you in a way in which you are not expecting, yet will not negate the need for faith

I hope I haven't quoted you out of context, but in this snippet from the original thread, you seem to get it. I ask you again, how strong is your faith, and how might that be affected by an actual revelation from God?
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