Howard

Obviously you don't understand the slippery slope "logic" that is employed here. It goes something like this: If it's okay for two members of the same sex to marry, then it opens the door for incestuous marriages and multiple partner marriages and any other kind of marriage people can dream up. Then we just go sliding into the moral abyss. So the foes of homosexual unions aren't just opposing the idea of marriage, they are defending the moral fabric of the nation - in their opinion of course..

The problem is that the message doesn't just resonate among the religious right in America, it resonates among much of the mainstream. And until a sizable percentage segment of the population gets behind the idea, very few politicians are going to fight for it, or even passively support it.

That's the way it was with integration and Civil Rights and that's the way it is for gay marriage. It just takes time for (seemingly) radical ideas to take hold in the public consciousness, no matter how just they may seem. I'd guess widespread acceptance of gay marriage is a generation away.

Aria

Some people need somebody to look down on, villify, and hate. They need somebody to blame. They need somebody to hate. Being that we've progressed to a point where you get blackballed for speaking out against womens suffrage, or minorities, or feminism, these people have now turned to we homosexuals.

Give it 30 years, and we'll progress past the point we're at now. The conservatives (which are behind almost all the outright hatespeech that I hear) have always been behind the liberals in terms of morals and values. What was outrageously liberal in the 1960's is now common, accepted, and true today. Same goes for the 40's, and the 10's and the last century. We make progress despite these hateful people.

Debbie T

Ah there still is discrimination in those areas its just covered up or heavily veiled to look like something else.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

It's all about power. Nothing more, nothing less. To have power, you must have a reason for power. People will grant you the power to do what you want in protection from something. But, you must live up to your promise of protection, otherwise you will lose it. Therefore, asking for power to remove such ills as poverty, crime, illness, etc is foolsih, for such tasks are nigh impossible in a world of conflicting goals. You fail to protect, the people will revolt, and you lose.

Therefore, you must have something you can protect them from. Someone different, since because they are different, we cannot inherently trust them. Herein comes the trap. Someday, you will be safe from these people. The people who were granted power, in order to preserve it will defeat the evil. But how to maintain power, now that the enemy is destroyed? By making a new one. Always someone who is different than you, in deed, in body, or in heart. Those differences are reasons that they are threat to your lifestyle--and there are always new ones. Power, then is maintained, for a new, beatable enemy is targetted and defeated. The process repeats itself.

Religion is not about the salvation of your souls--were it, then there would be no churches preaching against sin (if we indeed are born with it and cannot escape it), but preaching ways to free yourself from the effects of it--to ask forgiveness for your trespasses, and the wisdom to avoid them in the future. Religion is about power over people. It is no different than the government, corporations, or any social heirarchy. They seek to dominate someone to make themselves safe.

To dominate, you must first make them afraid. And those who dwell in darkness flock to he who holds the light. Why bring day, when night suits you all the same?

That, dear girl, is why religion is against homosexuals. Power. Nothing more, nothing less. It is a battle against the fear of everyone who isn't those who weild power--and we lose it every day, with every step we take, with every spoken agreement. The world we live in, full of violence, full of hate, full of sorrow, is made by those in power to keep themselves in power.--to keep power alive.

If there is heaven and hell, then we have lost heaven for hell--and we are glad for it.

Howard

Actually, this goes beyond superiority, hatred and the lust for power. It goes to the greatest motivator of all - fear. Something different is something to be feared, and in one very fundamental way, homosexuals are different. So they focus on the difference and reduce gays to sexual entities, not human beings. And they dramatize the danger� They will rape your children or turn them gay They will corrupt your society.

How do you fight fear and ignorance with arguments and evidence?

scigirl

Very very slowly.

scigirl

Zora

I was discussing the homosexual marriage thing with a friend whose husband I had always viewed as liberal. She said he is actually anti-gay, and she reminds him every time that he is being a bigot. His children, however, aren't at all bigoted or anti-gay. So, I think intelligence and exposure are breeding this attitude out of society.

Supposedly (NBC news) the "majority" of Americans want bans on gay marriages, whether those polled were Democrat or Republican. I believe the results would be different if the older people were eliminated from the poll...say those over 60. So, eventually, those homophobes will die off.

As programs are included in schools teaching the diversity of families, I think we will see a change in the attitude about this subject...at least I hope.

In reading the scientific research being done to determine a "cause" for homosexuality...there seems to be a correlation between birth order and being gay. The larger the family, the more likely the younger children are to be gay. There may be a hormone lacking during brain development which causes homosexuality, and the amount passed on by a mother who has given birth to many children may diminish with each birth. (Don't misunderstand, I don't think gays are "defective" and need to be "cured".)

But, if birth order is a contributing factor...its ironic that Catholics and Mormons...and fundies in general with their BIG families are contributing to the very problem they think is the enemy of society. Maybe its a message from Gawd!!!!

Iluvatar

Maybe they're just sexually frustrated?

Or maybe not.

freeth1nker

I am happy to announce I live in the first and only city in all of North America to legalize gay marriages: Toronto, Ontario, Canada. The traditional definition of a marriage as "a union between a man and a woman" was thrown out for being unconstitutional and it was changed to "a union between two persons." My high school even has a gay-straight alliance.

Although I don't live around fundies, there is always an atmosphere of homophobia, and not just in a high school environment. I think it is a more serious problem than just tolerance. I think homophobia is part of the "culture". It is very difficult to change it just because it is so ingrained in the collective psyche. I'm no psychologist, but I know that kids make "gay jokes" in the schoolyard all the time. The latest catchphrase for pre-teens & young adults is "that's gay" (used to describe whatever is ugly, stupid, uncool, the general implication is negative). My friends use that phrase a lot and I know they aren't homophobic (well, maybe, some of them are), i.e. they are not using it to insult gays, but it just such a common slip of the tongue slang these days. It's like when I first became atheist, I found it hard not to say "OMG" to something that surprised me.

However, even those without malicious intentions, when they're using these phrases, they are propagating a popular bigotry... and well, memetics will take it from there. A lot of youngsters start using homophobic slang without really understanding what they mean. Then eventually, they find it much easier to hate gays. I know there is a psychological correlation, but I'm no psychology major so don't quote me on this.

Anyway, culture is a very difficult thing to change.

The Other Michael

Hi freeth1nker,

That's like saying "just Jew him down on the price" or "he really gyp'ed (Gypsied) me" etc etc.

The sayings are so common that people don't even stop to think about the origins of the saying.

cheers,
Michael