Freethought & Rationalism Archive

niggle · 08-05-2003, 06:49 PM

I've heard from non-Christians, but I was addressing Christians on this issue.

The argument "you can have no foundations for morals without God" is a common argument amongst Christians but none of them ever are able to tell me why.

This issue is too important for Christians to just ignore.

Diabolical Vengeance · 08-05-2003, 06:57 PM

There are no moral phenomena, only moral interpratations of phenomena
-Nietzsche

Nowhere357 · 08-06-2003, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wiploc
They have four moves:

Do you mind if I borrow your list? It is so right on, number 5 especially. I'm in a debate where that is precisely what I'm dealing with - follow an angle down to the inescapable conclusion, then my opponent switches to the other tact. After cycling through twice, my head really did implode. Brains all over my keyboard.

Wiploc · 08-06-2003, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nowhere357
Do you mind if I borrow your list? It is so right on, number 5 especially.

Feel free.

Quote:

I'm in a debate where that is precisely what I'm dealing with - follow an angle down to the inescapable conclusion, then my opponent switches to the other tact.

I call that "two stepping," dancing back and forth between two (or more) incompatible positions. They have to do it a lot.

crc

Silent Acorns · 08-06-2003, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wiploc
5. The Conflation/Implosion move: They try to conflate the god-is-good-because-he-is-moral move with the morality-is-good-because-god-says-so move. They figure if they do both at once your brain will implode so they can act triumphant while you stand speechless. (This works pretty well, as a debating tactic. I'd love to have a slam-dunk comeback.)

Yes, perhaps the most annoying Theist move of all. They refuse to acknoloedge the circular logic involved:

Theist: God's moral authority draws from his infinite goodness
Atheist: How do we know god is good?
Theist: God tells us so in the Bible
Atheist: How do we know that he wasn't lying?
Theist: Because lying is immoral and God is infinitely moral
Atheist: Who says lying is immoral?
Theist: God does in the Bible
Atheist: What gives God the right to define what is and isn't moral?
Theist: God's moral authority draws from his infinite goodness

Repeat Ad Nauseum

I wonder if this works like a feedback loop in the Theist's head. Each step just reinforces their conviction. Kinda like sonic resonance and a crystal glass. Only our heads explode, not theirs.

08-05-2003, 06:49 PM	#11
niggle Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 746	Anyone? I've heard from non-Christians, but I was addressing Christians on this issue. The argument "you can have no foundations for morals without God" is a common argument amongst Christians but none of them ever are able to tell me why. This issue is too important for Christians to just ignore.

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08-05-2003, 06:57 PM	#12
Diabolical Vengeance Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: No longer Great Britain Posts: 447	There are no moral phenomena, only moral interpratations of phenomena -Nietzsche

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