Cynthia of Syracuse

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A reminder that speculating about the motives of another poster is strongly discouraged. Please keep the discussion on topic and impersonal.

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ten to the eleventh

From what I understand, the "founders" of the earliest Christianity may very well have had a political agenda that is identical to what I am suggesting that Jesus wanted. They were the poorest element of their society who saw the accumulation of property and wealth as the sin of their oppressors. They advocated a form of economic communism in which everyone did what they were able, and the wealth would be shared equally. Naturally, this would be a very appealing idea to those downtrodden, oppressed, and overtaxed folks. For now, I cannot imagine them tolerating the gross economic disparities that so many modern (especially American) Christians seem so comfortable with. It would be nothing but rebuke, rebuke, rebuke.

Sturmrabe

you know, even though I went though an Apostalic Pentecostal Indoctrination Course....

(literally)

I cannot seem to recall... nor want to bring myself to find, just what EXACTLY were the "all these things" that are going to be added...?

inquisitive01

I own what is known as MSNtv, which can be verified by administrators with access to visitor stats (under the "browser" section I believe).




I don't have a whole lot of money, but I try to use what I do have as efficiently as possible (I try to maximize the value of it, in other words).

One can actually live on much less (yes, even in the U.S.) than $20K per year IF unnecessary extras are avoided (of course, it would not always be easy). For example, one does not have to have a brand new, $30,000 car with a road navigator (whatever they're called), leather seats, etc. Instead, one can get a car that will likely last just as long, and is similar in comfort, etc., for less than $10,000... sometimes, a lot less if one looks hard enough.

As an example, the truck we bought a little over 4 years ago was 7 years old (93 model), had only 48,000 miles on it, and was in very good condition (fairly new tires, no mechanical problems, etc.). Rather than paying, say, $18,000 or more for a new truck of this make, possibly already having 5,000-10,000 miles on it, we got this truck for $8,182.81 with tax (they gave us $6,795 for the Grand Prix we traded in, and we put the remaining $1,387.81 on a credit card so we could decide what our monthly payments would be each month, rather than having a bank or some other loan company decide a fixed amount for us each month).

The other car we have is also a pre-owned one (big deal), but has been quite dependable (we paid $2,500 + tax in cash for this car, rather than having to go in debt for a $20,000 car... which basically means I can make over $17,000 less in my lifetime and still have the same thing, which is transportation). Put simply, we just do without the fancy extras because they mainly just serve to raise one's (social?) status (at least, in one's own eyes), which is not important at all to us.

Another example of how one can effectively manage money is through shopping for food (groceries). One good question to ask yourself while shopping would be something like "Should I pay $4.99 for this item at this store, OR should I pay $3.19 for the same exact item at this other store." If this is a weekly item (i.e., cereal), going to the "$3.19" store (if it's not significantly further away), would save you $1.80 or so a week (not including the tax you might save), which would come to nearly $100 a year saved on this one item. Do the same thing on 10 other items, you've saved $1,000 in one year.

As far as a home is concerned, it is certainly not necessary (or, a necessity) for a family of 2-4 people to have a $250,000 home or 10-15 acres (or more!) of land. All they would need (although they could get by with less, if necessary) is maybe 2 bathrooms, 3-4 bedrooms, a laundry room, a kitchen/dining room, a living room, and maybe a den. Things like a garage, a swimming pool, etc., are optional (not necessary). Right now, the house we have has 3 bedrooms, 1 1/2 baths, a laundry room, a kitchen, a living room, and a den (which was formerly a car port, but I use it sort of like a very small music studio). The house is on less than a 3/4-acre lot of land and has about a 40-foot paved driveway.

All of this is quite sufficient, too. We don't have a swimming pool, a tennis court, horses, etc. (we can swim elsewhere for much less than the upkeep for a pool, and we can play tennis for free at local tennis courts/parks). The house is currently valued at around $80,000, which would probably be around $110,000 (+/- a few thousand dollars) in larger cities (such as Dallas, Texas or New York City).




What's not civil about stressing a part of a Verse (or ANY sentence, phrase, etc.) with all caps? I simply wanted to make sure it was visible (and not missed).




All I can tell you is that the Bible says it will be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it will be for a rich man to enter into Heaven. I cannot play God and try to distinguish for you which rich people might get into Heaven, however, since only God will know that.

reprise

From the context of this discussion, I think it has something to do with putting away money for your retirement. To those of us outside the US IRA=Irish Republican Army, and so I'm scratching my head here and thinking "WTF"?.

If your humble forum moderator is sitting here and thinking "WTF", then perhaps neither side has articulated their respective positions in this discussion in a manner that the rest of us can understand, let alone on which we can form an opinion.

Please do not simply quote chapter and verse of any religious or political doctrine in this forum - this forum is not called "trading doctrinal references at 30 paces".

The "quoting scripture but nothing else" behaviour has gotten out of hand of late. The GRD mods will revolt and ask the admins to impose limits on this behaviour if this trend continues.

inquisitive01

IRA = Individual Retirement Account.

I'm not sure what you're referring to about the "quoting scripture but nothing else" part, though.

reprise

My apologies. This thread was split from another in which scripture was endlessly quoted.

inquisitive01

Just wondering if your inquiry in the OP (about the IRA's) was answered?

ten to the eleventh

No. I was waiting for someone else to take it up. Of course, as I think you understand, I'm using an Individual Retirement Account (IRA) as an example of what I see as a questionable practice of modern Christians, given the words attributed to Jesus.

Your explanation of your financial situation and strategies was unwarranted. I don't ask this question in order to badger you, personally. I don't need for you to prove to me that you are poor enough to satisfy Jesus. What I am after is a defense of the practice of owning more than one needs to live, which I contend is very little.

You said that one does not have to own a $30,000 car, but you did not say whether doing so would or would not be hypocritical for a Christian. That's what I'm after.

Another question you missed entirely, by choosing to tell me about your computer instead of answering the question. My question was:
"...what would you do if someone came to your door, and said, "Hey buddy, I really need a computer. Can I have yours?" Would you give it to him (if you had one)?"

I think a plain, honest reading of the verses has Jesus telling his followers to abandon their interest in material possessions. He says that the Lord will provide, and that you shouldn't worry about tomorrow. As far as the IRA example, that seems an awful lot like worrying about tomorrow.

In Jesus' commands to give to those who ask, etc. it would seem that one would soon be left with nothing. I'll allow that Jesus wasn't arguing that his followers shouldn't starve to death, or run about naked, but I can't see any way that he would have seen hoarding luxuries (consider what I may mean by "luxury" in a world with starving people) as acceptable. Comment?

So, back to another unanswered question: Is the Christian obligated to give away that portion of his possessions and income beyond what is necessary for basic well-being? If one can live on 20k, but makes 50k, should 30k be given away?