Enlighten Me

Love your dry sense of humor (and I love doing crossword puzzles, too!)

echidna

Yes, I think the majority of secular educationists do children a disservice. If education is to be to help children adjust to the real world, then real people exist in that world, people with different cultures and religions. My partner's 17 year old attends a Catholic school (grits and sucks air between teeth), but nonetheless her Religious Education is largely around comparative religions & from what I can gather, with little moral commentary. Basically she learns the various creation stories, the basic tenets, and some of religious symbolism from Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism & the Australian Aboriginal Dreamtime amongst others. It's too much to fit into a brief single high school subject, but regardless I think it gives a decent grounding into how many of the rest of the world believe, and in that I think it's a very useful social subject, rather than simply pouring scorn on religion and its adherents, which I think creates a less-than-useful cynicism.

HaysooChreesto!

That pretty much nails it. My mother in law and my wife have already told my soon to be 4 year old daughter that "Jesus loves you". The rapidity with which she's attached siginificance to to these simple religous concepts is disturbing to me.
So I wait until the right time... She's mentioned Jesus to me and the only thing I've asked her is "well Loo, where's Jesus? I've never seen him!" I do so in a humorous manner in the hopes that it will plant the seed of doubt early in her and also to avoid any negative feelings.
If she ends up a believer that's fine as long as she's happy. But I do wish for her to be able to think critically and for herself.

OTOH, I wouldn't go out of my way to expose my kids to religion of any sort. It's just not necessary.

Miss Piggy

Yep, that's a beautiful idea. But if her free decision is to become a Scientologist, Raelian, Hare Krishna person, fundamentalist Muslim etc. - are you sure you can accept that?

OK, I agree that you shouldn't force your children to become atheists. But if you appreciate secular & critical thinking, you should at least try to share it with your children.

Don't be too naive in your relativism: there are lots of people, who want to have *their* religion crammed down your child's throat.

Felstorm

It depends on what you expose them to. And in what order. Start from the base, nothing. IMO children are not mentally capable of truly discerning imaginary from actuality. Why do you think Santa Claus and Easter Bunny are perpetuated? Because some part of us likes to decieve little kids? Well I don't think I want to get into that here.

Anyway. I'd start by not telling them anything about it, but answer questions honestly when they do ask them. And they will. Explain that you, as an atheist-agnostic do not believe in supernatural gods. And then answer the question honestly and to the point. Whatever you do do not force them to not believe or force them to participate in spiritual activities. Just like a dog, if you pull on it's chain, or try and push it, it will resist you.

If you wish to see your child atheist, let religion show them how foolish they are and act. Don't talk down about theists around them, although it may be difficult and tempting at times with the silly things they do.

Perhaps there parents forced them to go to church?

Anyway the funniest thing I ever heard came out of a kids mouth at a Checkout line in Walmart. A nice looking elderly lady, wearing a rather conspicious crucifix, asked the little kid about what Santa Claus was getting the child for Christmas. The child got this indignant look on his face and responded with,

"Nothing. Santa Claus isn't real. Why do you believe in him?"

I just about fell on my ass laughing at the dumbfounded look on this ladies face after being outwitted by a seven year old.

BadBadBad

"If they want to be religious?" Why would they want to be religious? Peer pressure? Pressure from a parent, family members, or church members? That's the issue isn't it? They would only want to become religious, not because they had considered all the issues and decided religion was true and a god worthy of worship, but because someone they trust is lying to them and either overtly or implicitly pressuring them into conforming. That's the only reason why people become religious.

What should be our response as atheists to this pressure? Say nothing? Sit back passively and let others pressure your naive children into the lifelong cult of any religion? Don't let others manipulate your children into religion particularly "organized religion." Isn't that just another word for manipulative brainwashing cult? They don't just passively teach religion at any church I've ever been to. "Teachings" are part of an overall culture of manipulation. Atheists should sit back and say nothing about that?

No, I think it's our duty to educate our children about the big lie of religion. "Don't force them into your ideology?" What ideology is that? Reality? How is educating your children on the reality of important cultural issues like religion some how wrong? I teach them that some people are immoral, lazy, criminals, thieves, murderers, racists, haters, and liars. I teach them that is not the right way to live their life. I teach them that others are righteous, pious, hypocrits, ignorant bigots. I don't see the difference. I teach them my view of world politics, and I teach them my view of religion. I agree that it's not my job to shove that down their throat, but I'm going to try pretty hard to not let the religious zealots do that either.

It seems like as atheists, we can be tolerated as atheists as long as we keep our beliefs to ourselves. Living with a christian wife has shown me that that's the wrong approach, particularly with respect to kids. Religion is life in fantasy landl, and you only get there through intentional manipulation. Religion has had and still does have a horrific effect on our world, and I believe that we as atheist parents have a moral duty to educate our kids to that effect.

I agree with everything else you said, but I just don't agree that we should necessarily be passive while we have people like these born again fundie freaks here in the US coming at our kids anymore than we should sit by while drug dealers and users try to manipulate our kids into that culture. The only difference between the two is that it's politically incorrect to react to religion in the same way we would to the drug culture. Personally, I don't see the difference. Here's your brain on drugs, here's your brain on religion. This commercial shows the same picture both times.

BadBadBad

I'm not real sure what your point of view is yguy. Kids are born atheists. I don't think it's a matter of making them become atheists. It's a matter of not letting our fundie bible belt culture, at least in the US anyway, lie to them and manipulate them and lead them into the cult of christianity.

I don't want my kids to become non-drug users. I want to prepare them for the day the drug dealer/user peer group, approaches them and pressures them to smoke a joint. That's not a useless skill I'm teaching them.

BadBadBad

I think I read you wrong Miss Piggy. My wife has already pressured our kids into her cult, and she's going to keep doing it. I can't force them to ignore her. However, I won't sit still and say nothing. I won't let my wife drag them off to a fundie Baptist church for brainwashing. When they get older, and at mom's pressuring, they come to me and ask to go to church, I can say fine, as long as you spend as much time studying the bible with me! I can certainly make them think about what they are being taught, and I think I have an obligation to give them information contrary to the cult indoctrination that their getting from mom.

BadBadBad

I agree with you Felstorm for the most part. However, I think you come from a point of view where the children are sheltered from religion through your atheism. I think if you look at my example of drug use, it becomes more clear. I agree with you that it's a tough balancing act. If you are too controlling, they might be more inclined to use drugs. If you live in a community where drug use is rare, your approach is probably fine. If you live in a community where drug use is rampant, I think you have to be much more overt and dilligent in your efforts to educate them and dissuade them. Surely you will agree with that.

Miss Piggy

OK, in your situation, no soft tactique works: you have to be militant. But in a community where fundamentalism has no power, very militant atheism often creates a "forbidden fruit" phenomenon - children start to rebel and become religious.

When I wrote my posts, I was thinking of a family where both parents are non-religious, and a society which has a relatively secular atmosphere.

I appreciate your assertiveness. I've noticed that when a secular person has children with a religious person, the kids are very often baptized or otherwise brought into religion. Secularists tend to be too gentle