Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Biff the unclean · 08-30-2007, 10:20 AM

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Originally Posted by Murray

Biff, do you supose the 10 commandments have ever been broken? Just because God wants us to make certain choices, begs with us and pleads with us and even threatens us (kind of like a father) does not mean that we do not have free will. The very fact that he does all this proves that He knows we have the ablility to choose.

You are having a lot of trouble following a rather simple thought.
I didn’t say that we lacked the ability to choose. I said that Bible God was in direct opposition to us having the ability to choose. That the ability to choose is original sin. That every bible quote you posted was God wanting us to SERVE and God COMMANDING us. God begs us NOT to use our free will but to follow His orders. God threatens us with death (if you dad is doing this you should call the cops on him) if we don’t obey Him like He was a common thug. That the bible says our free will comes from the Devil.

And you parrot the Protestant apologetic that God honors free will. Baloney. Have you never even read the bible?

TomboyMom · 08-30-2007, 10:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Murray

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Originally Posted by TomboyMom

O.K., now why does he command us to commit evil deeds? by "evil deeds" I mean deeds that you or I would consider to be evil under any other circumstance, such as stabbing babies to death.

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Has he commanded you to do that? Strange. He hasn't commanded me to do that. Instead he has commanded me to pray for my enemies and love my neighbor as myself.

Since he doesn't exist, he hasn't commanded me to do anything. According to the same book that tells you everything else you know about Him, he commanded just that very thing over and over again. Do I need to cite examples? Because it gets tedious. Believe me, he did. So, how do you square that with anything?

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Hell is not "I'll torture you forever." Hell is a place where people who have rejected God will be allowed to live without Him.

And you know this how?

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Of course! I believe that F=ma, because Newton told me that. I believe that the planets travel in eliptical orbits, because Kepler told me that. And I believe that Jesus rose from the dead becasuse people with nothing to gain and everything to loose swore that they had seen Him alive.

I don't. I believe these things because the evidence indicates that they are true, and the mainstream view of people knowledgeable in that field tell me they are true. Newton also told us that light particles travel through ether, and that base metals can be converted to gold. He was wrong.

Who swore they saw Jesus alive? Did they write anything about it? What? Historians tell us that we do not have a single piece of writing by anyone who ever laid eyes on Jesus, so who are these people you are talking about?

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Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Because I also have a friend, an invisible friend, who will do whatever you ask if you give me lots of money. I'll send you my PayPal info. It's easy to be skeptic--it lets you out of sending me the money. I cannot prove to you that my invisible friend exists, I can only point to him. He loves you, whether you believe in him or not. But he will only help you if you give me money. More money, more help. I hope that one day you will open yourself up to his love and help.

I am sorry, Tomboymom, but I don't believe in your invisible friend. Jesus, however, wasn't invisible. I believe in Him because of what He said and did.

How do you know? Have you seen him? Have you talked to anyone who saw him? Read a statement from anyone who saw him? Seen a photograph? What evidence do you have that he's not invisible? Can you show Him to me? Will I see Him? You do realize that your last sentence is completely circular, right? Why do you believe that He said and did those things?

storytime · 08-30-2007, 10:49 AM

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Originally Posted by Murray

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Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

But then we learn Free Will does not exist, all is predestinated. Romans 8 -11 et al.

You need to read your Bible a little more carefully. This is part of a paper I wrote on Romans 9-11:

Calvinists have taken phrases from this passage and used them to teach that only the individuals whom God chose can believe in Jesus Christ and be saved. The rest of humanity are “vessels of wrath” that God has chosen to “harden” so that they cannot believe and be saved. There are many errors in this interpretation:

First, the sovereign choice in this passage is not the choice of individuals to be saved. After presenting the complete message of the gospel - from the sinfulness of man (1:18-3:20) to the free gift of salvation through faith in Jesus (3:21-5:21) and victorious life in the Spirit (6:1-8:39) - Paul deals with a question that many in his audience would certainly be wondering by now (9-11). Where does Israel fit in to all of this? Clearly the majority of them had rejected Jesus. What about the promises of salvation that God made to Israel? Paul argues that “it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, ‘In Isaac your seed shall be called.’ That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as seed.” Paul is arguing is that the promise of God’s salvation does not apply to the physical descendents but to the “children of promise.” As we see in Romans 4:13-16, Paul is referring to those who share in the faith of Abraham. God chose to save those who have faith like Abraham, not those who are the physical descendents of Abraham (just as God chose Isaac, the child of promise, over Ishmael, who was also a physical descendent of Abraham). This is much different than saying that God chooses which individuals will have faith like Abraham! Paul anticipates that some might argue that it was unfair for God to choose to save only those who have faith and not choose to save all of Israel. He responds by demonstrating God’s sovereignty, but in so doing, he is not arguing that God chooses which individuals will have faith. God’s choice of Jacob and Esau did not determine whether or not they would go to heaven. It determined which one of them would be the father of Israel. God’s mercy to Moses was that God allowed Moses to see His glory (Exodus 33:18-19); it had nothing to do with anyone’s salvation. God gave Pharaoh success and removed his inhibitions and fears so that he would fulfill the purposes of God concerning Israel. Nevertheless, this is hardly saying that God sealed Pharaoh in eternal damnation from before the beginning of time. This passage certainly teaches that God makes sovereign choices in His dealings with men. The most significant is His choice to save anyone who believes on Jesus Christ (John 6:40).

Secondly, Gentile unbelievers are not discussed anywhere in Romans 9-11. This is possibly the most obvious and embarrassing mistake in the Calvinists’ exegesis of this passage. The “vessels of wrath” are clearly unbelieving Israelites, those who are not a part of the believing “remnant.” It is a huge mistake to read the majority of humanity into that select group.

Thirdly, the “vessels of wrath” were “prepared for destruction” because of their unbelief, not because of an eternal decree. The vessels of wrath have not “attained to righteousness,” because “they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.” In 11:21, Paul says that “because of unbelief they were broken off...” The "blindness" of 11:7 is that which is spoken of in John 12:37-41: "But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him...Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 'He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.'” As it was in Isaiah's time, this blindness was a punishment for previous sin! The reason God sends blindness on people is not so that they will not have a chance to believe but to punish them for their unbelief. This will happen again in the last days: "The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12).

Fourthly, the “vessels of wrath” can still be saved. Paul goes on to say that “…if they do not continue in unbelief, [they] will be grafted in again.” Paul expresses his desire to “save some of them” despite the fact that they have been “blinded.” He affirms that "'Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For 'whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'" The "blindness in part" is not an eternal decree that irreversibly damns individuals to hell; it is a national punishment that will be removed "once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." God will one day fulfill his promise (Jeremiah 31:33-40) and "all Israel will be saved."

According to the will of God, the predistination was set in seed of promise - Isaac. This would only include sons of Jacob as "the seed". For the promise was not given to Esau or any Gentiles who were the lawless peoples.

"The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan."

The Jews aren't lawless. So who then fits the criteria of Satan - the liar? None but the Gentiles called Christians. Trying to expell the Jews and make themselves "the children of god"[sons of god]. And isn't this the same thing that the High Priest accused Jesus of doing? For the Pharisee Priest said that he condemned Jesus for declaring himself to be the son of God.

Gentiles were never the seed of promise either by faith or works or both. For the promise belonged to the ONE seed "jacob" [Israel] as predistined. No amount of faith or works could change the predistined promise of gods will.

And what was gods will? That the land of Israel belonged to Israel. This inheritance of promise was not be sold or given away to unlcean - uncircumcised, lawless people. Property rights were to remain within the Jewish people. Obedience in slaughter of the Canaanites provided the saying "and I will give you the land of Canaan" as an inheritance, a possession. And the land area was measured by the sons of Jacob-Israel in their 12 tribes. (Ezekiel)

How do non Jewish people fit themselves into this "promise"?

Murray · 08-30-2007, 11:05 AM

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Originally Posted by TomboyMom

How do you know [that Jesus was not invisible]?

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Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Have you seen him?

Nope. I wasn't alive.

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Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Have you talked to anyone who saw him?

Nope. Everyone who say him has been dead for ceturies.

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Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Seen a photograph?

Nope. Cameras were not invented then.

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Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Can you show Him to me?

Nope. He's long gone.

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Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Read a statement from anyone who saw him?

Yes. This is the sole basis for all of our understanding of ancient history. Is that circular? I don't see how. Is it foolish? Maybe so, but no one seems to have a problem believing that Aristotle was visible.

Murray · 08-30-2007, 11:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Biff the unclean

You are having a lot of trouble following a rather simple thought.
I didn’t say that we lacked the ability to choose.

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Originally Posted by Biff the unclean

Murray, where in the bible does God give us free will?

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Originally Posted by Biff the unclean

I said that Bible God was in direct opposition to us having the ability to choose.

Then why did he create us that way? And if He has changed His mind about it, why not overide our free will and force us to obey Him?

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Originally Posted by Biff the unclean

That the ability to choose is original sin.

If Adam and Eve lacked the ability to choose to sin before they sinned, then how did they sin?

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Originally Posted by Biff the unclean

That every bible quote you posted was God wanting us to SERVE and God COMMANDING us. God begs us NOT to use our free will but to follow His orders.

You make it sound as if we are only exercising our free will if we choose to disobey God. Free will means we can make a choice. A choice requires at least two alternatives. We can choose to obey God or we can choose to disobey God. God wants us to choose to obey Him. This does not mean that God does not want us to be able to choose.

If I ask a girl out, I want her to say "yes" and I would try to convince her to say "yes," but that does not mean I want her to be unable to say "no." If that were the case, then her "yes" would mean nothing.

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Originally Posted by Biff the unclean

That the bible says our free will comes from the Devil.

This is not true. Show me a verse that says this.

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Originally Posted by Biff the unclean

And you parrot the Protestant apologetic that God honors free will. Baloney. Have you never even read the bible?

I have read the Bible numerous times. God honors free will by allowing us to choose to accept Him or choose to reject Him. Of course He wants us to choose to accept Him, but He wants us to choose.

TomboyMom · 08-30-2007, 11:27 AM

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Originally Posted by Murray

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Originally Posted by TomboyMom

How do you know [that Jesus was not invisible]?

Nope. I wasn't alive.

Nope. Everyone who say him has been dead for ceturies.

Nope. Cameras were not invented then.

Nope. He's long gone.

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Originally Posted by TomboyMom

Read a statement from anyone who saw him?

Yes. This is the sole basis for all of our understanding of ancient history. Is that circular? I don't see how. Is it foolish? Maybe so, but no one seems to have a problem believing that Aristotle was visible.

Really? Where did you read a statement from anyone who saw Jesus alive? My understanding is that no such thing exists, just the third hand compilation of oral histories in the gospels. What are you reading?

Biff the unclean · 08-30-2007, 11:28 AM

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Originally Posted by Murray

Yes. This is the sole basis for all of our understanding of ancient history. Is that circular? I don't see how. Is it foolish? Maybe so, but no one seems to have a problem believing that Aristotle was visible.

You are making an assumption that this is ancient history. This isn’t history at all. It’s mythology and it conforms perfectly well to mythology. Why you can hardly tell the difference between Jesus and Dionysus.

TomboyMom · 08-30-2007, 11:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Murray

Yes. This is the sole basis for all of our understanding of ancient history. Is that circular? I don't see how. Is it foolish? Maybe so, but no one seems to have a problem believing that Aristotle was visible.

Well, invisible people rarely write books. Did your friend Jesus write any books?

Biff the unclean · 08-30-2007, 11:57 AM

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Originally Posted by Murray

I said that Bible God was in direct opposition to us having the ability to choose.

Then why did he create us that way?

He didn’t. He created us without the knowledge of good and evil which made it impossible for us to have a free will.

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And if He has changed His mind about it, why not overide our free will and force us to obey Him?

He didn’t change His mind. The only thing He honors is people obeying Him as if they were robots.

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Adam and Eve lacked the ability to choose to sin before they sinned, then how did they sin?

Obviously the story is asinine. A&E have no idea what good and evil are. They are told not to gain this knowledge and are punished because they didn’t obey like good little robots. Did they know that there was something good about obeying and something evil about not obeying? No, they had no idea what good and evil even were.

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You make it sound as if we are only exercising our free will if we choose to disobey God.

Choosing to abandon your freewill in favor of obedience is not honoring freewill.

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Free will means we can make a choice. A choice requires at least two alternatives. We can choose to obey God or we can choose to disobey God. God wants us to choose to obey Him. This does not mean that God does not want us to be able to choose.

Only if we don’t choose to abandon our freewill we face eternal damnation. That’s like a murder saying “your money or your life” meant that his victim chose to be shot.

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If I ask a girl out, I want her to say "yes" and I would try to convince her to say "yes," but that does not mean I want her to be unable to say "no." If that were the case, then her "yes" would mean nothing.

Hey baby, go out with me or I will cast you into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his fallen angels where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for eternity. Oh yeah, that’s honoring her freewill.

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This is not true. Show me a verse that says this.

Genesis3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

In the NT the talking snake is associated with the devil. But here he truthfully points out that God is lying to them about dying that very day. They go on to live to be around a thousand.
And the Talking Snake also points out that if they eat the magic fruit they will get the superpower of being able to tell good from evil, and that ability is freewill.

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I have read the Bible numerous times. God honors free will by allowing us to choose to accept Him or choose to reject Him. Of course He wants us to choose to accept Him, but He wants us to choose.

And He will punish us if we don’t choose what He wants. That is not honoring freewill, that is demanding subservience.

Paul Brand · 08-30-2007, 01:05 PM

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Originally Posted by Gandhi the Hun

I just have some simple questions that you have all probably heard before.

Often when I hear someone say they have a simple question, it's not simple.

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First of all, why would an infitely good and powerful God allow things like the Holocaust to occur and murder in general? Is god being obligated to give all humans free will the reason for allowing such acts of "evil" to occur? If so, wouldn't this mean that God's omnipotent "goodness" is limited?

I think I follow your logic, and I agree with the basic gist regarding limitations to goodness. (BTW, I personally don't like words like "infinitely", and "omnipotent". And I disagree with the premise of God being obligated.)

I would still say that God is good. On the other hand, maximizing a utility function doesn't necessarily result in the individual components being maximized. In God's utility function, he seems to have placed more value in the libertarian free will of man then he has done with the limitation of evil. It seems impossible (according to the current laws of the universe) to both maximize free will and minimize evil. I would suppose that the virtue of love can only come from libertarian free will. From free will also comes evil. Also stemming from free will is responsibility.

Can one have free will without evil? I don't think so. Can one have free will with partial restrictions on evil? One can have partial free will with partial restrictions on evil.

If God can't make squared circles, perhaps he cannot create free will and love without the potential for evil.

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Another thing, for all you theists who are Christians, what is your stance on "who gets into heaven" and for what reasons? I am not a Christian (or a theist for that matter), but I have always understood that if someone excepts Jesus as their personal savior, they get to heaven no matter what, even if they commit terrible acts of murder or something. From this I conclude the following, God/Jesus is a dick who is only "omnipotent" and "good" enough to forgive those who worship him. Seems pretty retarded to me...Any Christians care to explain?:huh:

I don't really know who gets into heaven, and I certainly don't have a complete set of criteria to do any justice to judging.

Regardless, I don't agree with the criteria you suggested, and I think many evangelicals (i.e. those who would be closest to identifying with your criteria) would suggest that a person's faith is evidenced by their actions.

Perhaps Matthew 25:31-46, would summarize my beliefs on judgment. It seems clear to me that many people will be surprised in knowing they are approved by God. And vise versa. And it seems to me that our ministry to those who have little is important.

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