Primordial Groove

I think once you look past the instilled beliefs of not wanting to upset your family and the anxiety of their retribution, you will see how empowering this is for you.

You made a large leap in personal development. Good for you!

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

Number of Americans dead saving the French:

56,681.

Number of dead French soldiers from WWI:

400,00+.

Number of British dead in WWI:

400,000+

And what "shameful" behaviour has France been guilty of? Vietnam? Wait, they told us not to go in there.

Shameful? They think we shouldn't go in there--and they will do what they can to prevent us. How is that shameful, doing what they believe to be their moral duty?

Want to know what shameful is? Shameful is acting prideful in all aspects when dealing with another. Shameful is reneging on every major international treaty in order to spend billions upon billions of dollars on a program that is so ludicrous in concept, let alone functionality, as to be utterly impossible.

Guess who fits that bill?

Gooch's dad

Good luck, bg! And I'd bet that most of your fundy relatives don't know what the term 'fundy' means.

beth

I just noticed the email that my cousin sent to me. He also replied to all. This is his way to support me, I suppose. He is older and, of course, a guy, so they'll be less likely to gang up on me if I have male backing. YAY!!!!!! It was the 'fundie' statement that had me worried. I may have my uncle check me on this. But I think that this might be a clue to them that I am no longer a fanatical Christian.

SanDiegoAtheist

Don't forget the 160,000 or so dead Frenchmen in WWII.

Despite all the jokes, the French paid a very very large price in blood for the world wars - a greater one than the United States did. The largest reason why they were conquered in both world wars was simply their geographic proximity to the agressor nations. If the UK and France had had their respective locations switched around, I'm sure we'd be making Limey jokes.

And many French civilians died in both wars. How many US civilians paid with their lives in those wars?

Thanks for playing beerking, next time, why don't you get your facts checked?

BG:

Good for you - I know hitting 'reply all' was a mistake - but I think you might discover some friends in the family that you didn't even know you had.

A few years back, at a Thanksgiving dinner, my (fundy Mormon) uncle did the "Grace" at the table (which I always hate, but since it was being held in a Xian house, as far as I'm concerned, they have every right to - this past year was my brothers, and no grace was said). Most years, when it's held at a believers house, the "grace" is reasonably non-denomination - just a "Thanks God" type of thing. This particular year, it was very evangelical, and ended in "This we ask in the name of OUR lord, Jesus Christ".

I approached him after the meal and politely requested that he remember that not all the members of the family believed as he did in the future - that I at least did not consider OUR lord to be a very inclusive thing to say, and that it made me feel excluded from a family event. He remarked that he didn't even think about it that way (as close to an apology as I got).

While the conversation was quiet, I was surprised that after that conversation, I was approached, and thanked, by several members of my extended family who were also offended, and were happy that someone had the balls to say something (my immediate family also were happy, but I had expected that, since my entire immediate family is secular). It led to finding out that several members of my extended family that I hadn't talked to very much before had quite a lot in common with myself, and some very nice conversations over that holiday. I think even my father was surprised that his sister (who he almost never sees, since she's on the other end of the continent) wasn't a fervent 'believer' (as most of my fathers side is).

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

BigBlue2

Gross underestimate. The real figure is more like 1,400,000.

This figure should be more like 700,000, if not more, including 20,000 in a single day.

Don't take this as criticism - I agree with your post overall.

chekmate

In case anyone cares about death tolls during World War 1 or World War 2.

Gregg

I did not vote for George Bush Jr. I hate Ashcroft. I do, however, support the disarmament of Iraq, by force if necessary. Nuclear proliferation must be resisted. I am astonished how many people do not understand the threat it poses.

The world came within mere moments of permanent midnight several times that we know about during the Cold War--and probably a number of other times that we don't know about.

The Cold War was "fought" by two nations that had differing political and economic systems, but no historical enmity or territorial disputes. A lucky accident, one that didn't repeat itself when India and Pakistan went nuclear.

If nuclear proliferation is permitted to proceed further, at some point a nuclear conflict will become inevitable. The more countries get the bomb, the greater the chance that some truly insane person will get control of the launch codes.

But it wouldn't even take an act of aggression. A computer error, a bogey on the radar screen, an unannounced missile test, any of these could set off Armageddon. And the more countries get the bomb and long-range delivery systems, the greater the chances of accidents happening.

So yes, I support disarming Iraq, by force if necessary. Iraq has had twelve years to disarm itself to the satisfaction of the world community. In case you all haven't noticed, even France doesn't believe Saddam has disarmed.

While I support disarming Iraq, I realize that there are legitimate reasons to oppose the war. The above, however, is not one of them. You have a right to your opinion, Beth, but it's wrong. And remember, I am speaking as someone who did not vote for Bush, and does not like him.

To believe that Bush "wants" this war for "personal" reasons, including re-election, is just silly. Winning the Gulf War didn't get Bush Sr. re-elected. An even slightly protracted war would send oil prices through the roof and have powerful aftershocks on the economy. Heck, the very THREAT of war is already affecting oil prices and hurting the economy. Way for a President to boost his popularity.

I'm sorry, I think Bush "wants" this war for the very reasons he's stated. Of course, you are free to disagree with those reasons, and you might even be able to make a very good case against them. So it's not really necessary to invent other reasons.

Gregg

Ut

France was not conquered in WWI. The Germans didn't even take Paris during that war. Without American intervention toward the end of the war, it would probably have ended in a stalemate and both sides would have passed an armistice that did not assrape the Germans badly as the Versailles Treaty did.

beth

I have other reasons for not wanting the war. I stated earlier that I made a 'smart-ass' reply to my cousin. These remarks are pure speculation. If the email was sent only to my cousin, it would have resulted in an an exchange of banter betwixt the two of us. Now my idiotic remarks are for my whole family to read. The main reason I do not want this war is that I feel that N.Korea poses the highest threat to us at this time. We are basically ignoring N.Korea while Bush goes on his campaign for the war with Iraq. I do understand that Irag needs to be disarmed, by force if necessary, but I think that we should allow the UN to continue with inspections and disarment for the time being.