Freethought & Rationalism Archive

captainpabst · 04-06-2003, 12:39 AM

Maybe, instead of taking exception to or arguing with any of his positions (which you seem not to have done yet), you could email him something like, "well that's interesting...in case you're curious, these are the basic things I think/believe" - include a few links to certain world-view shaping things you've read online. Also maybe some John Spong, Dan Barker, or someone similar - someone who can write from the Christian perspective but who is so figurative about it (Spong), or has escaped it (Barker), that they might be able to provide a path out of the fold for someone still caught up in it (your bro).

Whatever you do, I wouldn't risk damaging your relationship with your brother in any way, if you can help it. Try to make it a respectful dialogue if possible. I wish I could offer advice from experience, but my brother and I agree about 99% on the religion issue. Good luck!

Shake · 04-06-2003, 11:22 AM

well, I'm responding after his (initial) reply, so this is somewhat moot, but here goes anyway:

In the spirit that you opened the dialogue, inquisitive not confrontational, you probably helped set him at ease in case he's noticed the diference between himself and the rest of the family. He may or may not, but things like this could be stressful on both sides. If you had started, "How the fuck can you believe that shit?" then I'd have said that was a bad idea. You were (and it seems you continue to be) respectful and appearing to be honestly curious about his change and beliefs. Only someone paranoid or a real jerk would have taken offense to your questions.

Glad to hear it's working out well. Although you say that your fears were confirmed, you probably can't do much to change him back, so just continue to be a good, understanding brother (as much as you can) and keep the communication lines open ... it'll help in areas where your ideas conflict.

Bumble Bee Tuna · 04-07-2003, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Well B, I don�t know if your asking me these questions to try to find
the truth, (I doubt that), but I really don�t know the answers to them
for sure. I am really interested in those same questions about the Old
Testament, but they are really of very little importance. It doesn�t
matter whether they are true literally or symbolically. I�m sure you
could spit out a whole list of technical reasons why Noah�s arc
couldn�t have happened. There are also plenty of reasons that
evolution couldn�t have happened or that the world couldn�t be how
ever many years old or whatever you look at on either side, the other
side could give your plenty of reasons why the other person is stupid.
And that�s actually how it should be. God�s plan is not about us, or
our understanding, but rather faith in Him. (1 Corinthians 2:4 My
message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but
with a demonstration of the Spirit�s power, so that your faith might
not rest on men�s wisdom, but on God�s power.) And there are examples
all through the scriptures of God rewarding people because of their
faith, not because they have used science to prove to other people
that there is a God out there. Imagine that situation that there is
video footage or something of perfect proof that God is real.
Everybody would have to believe in him because there is proof. That�s
not what God is all about. He is about choice, and has been since the
beginning (Adam and Eve giving them the choice to obey him or eat the
apple, oh, and look what it is our nature to choose). There is
obviously enough room in the facts for people to make a choice about
what they believe, and I don�t think God would have it any other way.
So I�m not saying that there is no truth out there or that there
isn�t any good evidence, or any �the truth is within� crap. It is
definitely worth investigating everything, and if you have any
questions of spiritual significance, it�s cool to ask.

Oh and you definitely took issue with something that I didn�t mean.
Sorry about the miscommunication. In my admiring of your courage and
curiosity, I defiantly wasn�t suggesting that people like you have any
fear of God whatsoever. I wasn�t even really talking about people like
you. Just saying what I said that most people (especially people who
believe in God but don�t follow Him, but also other people) fear
talking about God. B, really if you ever come to a point where you
don�t want to talk about this or debate about it, with anyone, you
can just say it or stay silent, and nobody is going to just assume you
agree with them, and if they do, it�s really not that big a deal. And
also, no need to get angry about debating something with somebody.

Hey, and while were having this brotherly bonding get to know ya
session, I would like to know a bit about your faith:

Who do you think Jesus was?
Who do you think people are/Is there a purpose for life?
Do you think we have this choice that I was talking about?
What books/sources do you have faith in?

Peace yo brotha man. Good word. Peace. (Philippians 4:7)

Love
jon

I respond back:

Quote:

>
>Well B, I don�t know if your asking me these questions to try to find
>the truth, (I doubt that), but I really don�t know the answers to them
>for sure.

I'm asking because I'm concerned about you and want to know what's going on in your life. And I don't know why, but I guess I figured it would be better to just be certain that you were the way I thought you were than to worry about it all the time. I'm not asking to challenge your beliefs or try to change your mind (though of course I still hope that you will) but just to find out what's going on with you. I'm sure it's a big part of your life so it would make sense for me to learn about it, right?

>There are also plenty of reasons that
>evolution couldn�t have happened or that the world couldn�t be how
>ever many years old or whatever you look at on either side, the other
>side could give your plenty of reasons why the other person is stupid.

This is not true, but I'm not going to argue.

>Imagine that situation that there is
>video footage or something of perfect proof that God is real.
>Everybody would have to believe in him because there is proof.

Yes, everyone would believe in him, but you'd still have a choice to follow or not. Satan "believes" in God but look what good it does him, right? The choice lies in whether to worship God or not. Or at least that's how it should be, in my opinion. Right now I have no choice but to not believe in God because I can't "choose" what I believe- I can only "choose" to believe whatever I see evidence for. I could no more choose to believe in God than I could choose to believe that the world is flat. This is why the whole "god gives us a choice" thing really bothers me, because I feel like I definitely don't have a choice. Just my personal ideas, though, I know for you it's different.

>B, really if you ever come to a point where you
>don�t want to talk about this or debate about it, with anyone, you
>can just say it or stay silent, and nobody is going to just assume you
>agree with them, and if they do, it�s really not that big a deal.

In this country where being an atheist is considered by many to be "un-American", debating these things with people does tend to be a big deal. It's been said that atheists are the last group that it's still socially acceptable to be prejudiced against.

>Hey, and while were having this brotherly bonding get to know ya
>session, I would like to know a bit about your faith:

I'd be happy to answer any questions you have- but you have it wrong, I don't have faith. I have three categories- things I know, things I'm pretty certain about, and things I don't know. There is no "things I don't know, but I will decide I know anyway" faith category.

>Who do you think Jesus was?

This falls into the "things I don't know" category. There is no evidence of Jesus outside of the New Testament except a single passage in writings by a historian named Josephus. That passage is suspected to be a forgery. So that leaves us with no evidence at all of his existence except for scriptures, which puts him at the same level as, say, Odysseus. The entire Jesus story is filled with elements of religions before Christianity (the born-of-a-virgin, son-of-god, sacrificed-and-then-revived-three-days-later aspect is in numerous religions that were around before Jesus, notably the gods Mithra and Dionysis, that I remember). I have no idea the exact story, but I'd bet on either there being a real spiritual leader named Jesus, which the writers of the NT used as a foundation to invent the mythical stories of the NT on, or there was never a Jesus and they didn't need to have a foundation for their myths. With the gospels dated to be written around 40 years after the alleged death of Jesus, that's plenty of time for a myth to be created.

>Who do you think people are/Is there a purpose for life?

I think people are a particular specie of animals.
The purpose of life is whatever you make of it. Mine is to have the most fun possible, but for others it could be exploring the world, making discoveries, or making a mark in history. Your purpose is whatever you want it to be.

>Do you think we have this choice that I was talking about?

As I explained earlier, definitely not. I can't "choose" to believe in God any more than I can "choose" to believe in an invisible pink unicorn that lives in the surface of Jupiter. Both are unproven ideas.

>What books/sources do you have faith in?

Well as I mentioned earlier I don't have any "faith", but if you're asking what things I trust, for the most part:

Math- Math never fails, but also isn't much of a source of information.
Science that I can understand- Any science that I have learned and personally demonstrated to be true through labwork and calculations.
Science that I don't personally understand has a high degree of trust, but not as high as science I can understand.
International news media- the American news media is very biased and ot extremely informative. International news is much more balanced and truthful. And I wouldn't be caught dead watching Fox News, the channel that successfully argued in court that they could fire a reporter who refused to run a false story because they have a right to lie in their stories if they want to.
But basically I don't put faith into anything. I critically examine every new piece of information I hear, and I think "How does this fit in with what I already know?". If it doesn't fit, I don't trust it much and I examine the conflict closer. When I learn something in a class, I make sure it's true and double-check it in any way I can. I have varying degrees of trust in different pieces of information and if something comes along that I trust more than something I already have, I'll change my mind to fit the new evidence.

Hope that answered your questions adequately. Though if you do have more, by all means ask! I love to talk about it probably as much as you love talking about your faith (I assume you do, at least).

BTW what do you think of the artwork here: www.digitalblasphemy.com I have a wallpaper from there and I think it's really cool but from a computer artist's critique what do you think. And no, despite the site name this has nothing to do with the subject of the rest of this email.

-B

So there you have it. We'll see where it goes from here.

-B

HelenM · 04-07-2003, 06:47 AM

BBT

It seems like it's going pretty well so far. Congratulations on successfully setting a 'friendly' tone but one in which you're both comfortable being honest (so it seems).

If this e-mail exchange can take place without it making your relationship worse then I think that's wonderful - because it's hard to talk about a topic with someone when you know that your views and theirs are very different - and perhaps always will be (but maybe not)

Helen

LLaurieG · 04-07-2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

(your brother) God�s plan is not about us, or our understanding, but rather faith in Him.(snip Bible verse) And there are examples all through the scriptures of God rewarding people because of their faith, not because they have used science to prove to other people that there is a God out there.

(Laurie) Hm. He really elevates the "just have faith" concept: having faith, in and of itself, is the praiseworthy thing. I would ask him: what about people who display just as much faith, but in a non-Christian god? What would be wrong with that? Is (omnipotent) God for some reason unable to tell that these are good, pious people too? Are they going to hell? If so, why? They have just as much faith!

I've run into Christians like this, and recently. I'm still not sure what to do with them. It's as though "just keep on believing, no matter what" is their total goal. Privately I've come to suspect that these people are parroting a charismatic minister or pastor, because a good translation of "faith" is "blind obedience." An authority figure harps on this theme mainly to insure those dollars keep flowing in. IMO that's also the motive for the bible verses extolling faith alone. "Don't ask questions: just believe. Don't get discouraged or leave this the church: just believe. You don't need to check other sources: just believe. Don't rebel: just believe. Have faith: just believe." The obedience thing becomes an end in itself. That makes me uneasy. It's a very slave-mentality philosophy, almost as though the religion is no longer about joy, freedom, enlightenment. It's wised up; it no longer promises that. Now it's "life is hard, life sucks - but if you just keep on believin', everything'll be OK."

Thank you, but my own motto is, and will continue to be QUESTION AUTHORITY.

TomboyMom · 04-10-2003, 10:10 AM

This is not about how to talk to your brother or anything, but the first thing that really bothered me in his response and one of the many things that bothers me that christians say was

<<i just know that God is real>>

I can't even read these kinds of sentences any more without getting livid. No, jon, you don't. You BELIEVE that god is real. You believe this because you also believe that it is important to believe certain things with no evidence or even contrary evidence, which is a practice called "faith" which you place great value on. But you don't know anything of the kind, and personally I couldn't even discuss the subject with him unless he agrees that be believes, but does not know.

When he says that he knows this, he is not extending a basic form of respect to anyone who believes differently from him. I will acknowledge the possibility that god is real, if he will acknowledge the possibility that god is not real.

I'm not suggesting that you take this tone, just ventilating.

Rene:banghead:

Bumble Bee Tuna · 04-10-2003, 11:06 AM

Well, I'm a strong atheist, so go figure. I'm not opposed to people saying they "know" something when they're really sure about it. He's wrong, but in his mind he's certain enough to use the word "know". BTW, he responded again:

Quote:

so thanks for the concern about my beliefs i guess. but i'll let you
know that you really don't need to worry about it all the time. you
don't even need to hope that i change my mind. this is because i have
been on both sides bri, and God has brought me so much more joy and
peace and love and all that good stuff. So even if you don't beleive
that it came from God, but rather just from my "false faith" or
whatever, i hope you wouldn't change me or even discourage me from
that. i actually don't know why, well i guess i do, but it doesn't
make worldly sense why any Atheist would want to discourage a
Christian from a faith where the second greatest command is to "love
thy neighbor as thyself."

anyway talking about this makes wonder why you believe that i have a
choice in what i believe since you say that you "definitely don't have
a choice". also, if life is about whatever you make of it, how do you
have a choice in that, isn't what you decide to make of it a choice?
isn't that choice based on what you believe?
also- if people are just a reaction to something set in motion by the
big bang, does anybody really have a choice in anything?

as far as the evolution thing is concerned... i say that either side
has arguments that the other side is wrong, and that there are reasons
evolution couln't have happened, you say that's wrong, a christian
says you're wrong, thus my point.
just to clarify, i wasn't saying that both arguments are valid, just
that people choose which side they believe.

i'm sure that SOME people consider being an atheist "un-american", i
don't think it's as bad as you like to believe. why don't you go sit
on the steps in your hall sunday morning and see how many people are
going to church. you said that "It's been said that atheists are the
last group that it's still socially acceptable to be prejudiced
against." The person who made that statement was surely an atheist
himself! not a Christian. anyway, i'm not a big fan of the "it's been
said so it's true" argument. but if you want to feel like there are
more people on your side, just go out and look at people in the world
like i said. or look at what they teach in the school system.

it's good that you think critically. You, like most scientists, base
everything off of what you "know" - what you believe. this is just a
little problematic esspecially since you disregard the option that you
could be wrong about something you think you know.
you were right when you said it should be that everybody believes in
God, but has the choice of whether to worship him or not. This was
actually God's idea of how it should be as well. this is how it was
when He created Adam and Eve. The Bible explains that when they
disobeyed God, they were no longer perfect (sin), and since God has no
part in sin, the very nature of man, there is now a separation between
us and God, our sin basically blinds us from God. that's why you feel
this whole "where the heck is God?" thing, and that's why Jesus came.

i have some other questions about your "knowledge" but no room for
them here. let me know what you think about the art links i sent you!

love,
jon

(some stuff on unrelated subjects deleted)

I'll get around to responding sometime today, probably.

-B

King Rat · 04-10-2003, 11:35 AM

I don't know why, but this whole exchange makes me quite sad.

Bumble Bee Tuna · 04-10-2003, 03:13 PM

me too, but I know why- my brother has turned into a brainwashed, irrational person, and he believes I am going to be put through eternal torment while he is in paradise and he won't mind. Very sad, IMO. Even sadder because there's nothing I can do about it.

-B

beth · 04-10-2003, 03:16 PM

Sounds like my family.

04-10-2003, 10:10 AM	#16
TomboyMom Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 10,931	Not that it matters but This is not about how to talk to your brother or anything, but the first thing that really bothered me in his response and one of the many things that bothers me that christians say was <<i just know that God is real>> I can't even read these kinds of sentences any more without getting livid. No, jon, you don't. You BELIEVE that god is real. You believe this because you also believe that it is important to believe certain things with no evidence or even contrary evidence, which is a practice called "faith" which you place great value on. But you don't know anything of the kind, and personally I couldn't even discuss the subject with him unless he agrees that be believes, but does not know. When he says that he knows this, he is not extending a basic form of respect to anyone who believes differently from him. I will acknowledge the possibility that god is real, if he will acknowledge the possibility that god is not real. I'm not suggesting that you take this tone, just ventilating. Rene:banghead:

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-06-2003, 12:39 AM	#11
captainpabst Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 200	Maybe, instead of taking exception to or arguing with any of his positions (which you seem not to have done yet), you could email him something like, "well that's interesting...in case you're curious, these are the basic things I think/believe" - include a few links to certain world-view shaping things you've read online. Also maybe some John Spong, Dan Barker, or someone similar - someone who can write from the Christian perspective but who is so figurative about it (Spong), or has escaped it (Barker), that they might be able to provide a path out of the fold for someone still caught up in it (your bro). Whatever you do, I wouldn't risk damaging your relationship with your brother in any way, if you can help it. Try to make it a respectful dialogue if possible. I wish I could offer advice from experience, but my brother and I agree about 99% on the religion issue. Good luck!

04-06-2003, 11:22 AM	#12
Shake Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Folding@Home in upstate NY Posts: 14,394	well, I'm responding after his (initial) reply, so this is somewhat moot, but here goes anyway: In the spirit that you opened the dialogue, inquisitive not confrontational, you probably helped set him at ease in case he's noticed the diference between himself and the rest of the family. He may or may not, but things like this could be stressful on both sides. If you had started, "How the fuck can you believe that shit?" then I'd have said that was a bad idea. You were (and it seems you continue to be) respectful and appearing to be honestly curious about his change and beliefs. Only someone paranoid or a real jerk would have taken offense to your questions. Glad to hear it's working out well. Although you say that your fears were confirmed, you probably can't do much to change him back, so just continue to be a good, understanding brother (as much as you can) and keep the communication lines open ... it'll help in areas where your ideas conflict.

04-07-2003, 06:47 AM	#14
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	BBT It seems like it's going pretty well so far. Congratulations on successfully setting a 'friendly' tone but one in which you're both comfortable being honest (so it seems). If this e-mail exchange can take place without it making your relationship worse then I think that's wonderful - because it's hard to talk about a topic with someone when you know that your views and theirs are very different - and perhaps always will be (but maybe not) Helen

04-10-2003, 11:35 AM	#18
King Rat Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 6,855	I don't know why, but this whole exchange makes me quite sad.

04-10-2003, 03:13 PM	#19
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	me too, but I know why- my brother has turned into a brainwashed, irrational person, and he believes I am going to be put through eternal torment while he is in paradise and he won't mind. Very sad, IMO. Even sadder because there's nothing I can do about it. -B

04-10-2003, 03:16 PM	#20
beth Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: where orange blossoms bloom... Posts: 1,802	Sounds like my family.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.