Claudia

I do not advocate the occasionnate swat on the butt. I have been guilty of it, but I do no consider it as something I recommand. It is just that sometimes, people can have quick reactions that they regret, we are not perfect, and we have to learn how to live with our imperfections. Which does not mean that we will not try to improve!

In fact, when a kid misbehave, I make the difference between a punishment and the immediate reaction. Immediate reaction is to stop the wrong doing, punishment is to prevent its coming back. I personnally think that punisment must be avoided as much as possible (I think the number of times I have punished my kids can be counted on both hands, for my 3 kids together, and may be on one hand only) which does not mean that it is immoral. Immediate reaction is compulsory in case of danger, but sometimes I see people react to things that whould have been better to be ignored (and I say ignore the act, not ignore the kid).
Why punish a tantrum? Or even make it stop? It is annoying, true, but it does not create any danger. If I react to the tantrum, my kid has learned that he can make me react that way.

True, time out can be similar to jail. It is why I never used them as a punishment, but better as "you need to be alone for a time to calm down, as soon as you feel calm enough please come back". Or "you are annoying me with your noise, do it a little farther". Inner doors in my house have no keys.
Something I consider to be very important is to never hummiliate a child with a punishment or when stopping a wrong doing. It is why I reject spanking, not only because it is a physical punisment but because it is hummiliating.
When my kids grew older, the politics at home has been: I give you a lot of freedom, show us that you deserve it. And so they did.

JGL53

As I said in a previous post, low class trash behavior. Thanks for making my point.

Are you a human being? Then I pronounce you qualified.


How did you know I have weak knees -<removed by moderator> sorry, I mean psychic? I've been taking glucosamine and MSM for several months now and my knees are radically improving. Pretty soon I'll be up to spanking children, kicking the neighbors asses for being too noisy, maybe even joining the armed forces and slapping around some third-worlders.

JGL53

See Claudia's post for an ACTUAL explanation of a reasoned process regarding spanking.

Interesting analogy. Becoming a billionaire isn't my goal in life, nor is it the goal of the vast majority. In any case, it's so unlikely, I won't feel like a failure in life if I don't. OTOH - on a COMPLETELY subject, BTW - refraining from spanking children is as easy as falling off a log. Everyone can achieve this status. If you don't, you ARE a failure.



[QUOTE]Originally posted by Donnmathan
[B] First, your equating spanking a child to wife-beating is an utter absurdity. A parent is both legally and morally obligated to discapline a child; a wife-beater has neither, as he is assulting a legal equal. Calling an apple an orange doesn't change the flavor.dismissed [QUOTE]Originally posted by Donnmathan
[B]

You want to talk fruit now? OK - hitting someone when it is unjustified by any decent moral standard is bananas.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Donnmathan
[B] ... Your arguements are based on a purely moral view, one which is not held by all (else we would not be having this discussion), and which is not defensable as a proof for your position. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Donnmathan [B]

It is a moral view, one that I hope will become more widespread in the fullness of time. It is as 'defensible' as is opposition to, say, slavery, female circumcision, and stoning as a form of the death penalty. No unemotional, scientific study will reveal to us the fact that such things should be done away with. I'm talking about common human decency. I'm talking about empathizing with other human beings. 'Other human beings' includes children.

So we are obviously at a loggerhead here. We have different moral sensitivities. I tend to be 'weak-kneed' when it comes to smacking children. You aren't.

I hope the laws everywhere will come to reflect my moral viewpoint one day on this issue. You don't But things seem to be moving in my direction, for which I am grateful.

You have a different opinion on this subject, no more 'provable' in scientific terms than mine.

You think the world would not be a better place if spanking is outlawed. I think it would. One view will win out in the end.

Good luck to us both. May the better (less-prone-to-reactive violence) man win.

dk

Now just hold on a minute. I think we both agree that punishments of any kind serve to teach a kid values and good habits, internlize values and habits essential to a good life.

Now I agreed that spanking is a taboo today, the status quo.

Logic required me to present the down side of other forms of disciplines, and the positive side to spanking. You made the rules, and I am simply following them. In an earlier post I detailed the advantages of timeout, appreciation and deprivation. Since I didn't mention the Bible, you must be talking to yourself.

I'll say this, parents that punish or reward (by any method) kids to control them make a big mistake. They may control the kid, but the kid doesn't learn to control themselves. Once outside of the parents reach the controlling parents soon learn the difference between raising a child, and controlling a child, because they've raised an out of control child. This of course has nothing to do with method of punishment.

You're the one hiding behind the Bible not me. I think Claudia makes a lot of sense.

dk

I can see you don't have a great deal of experience with kids. Believe it or not, most parents that abuse their kids love them, and many believe its wrong to spank. There's generally a pathology that accompanies physical abuse that holds both the parent and child hostage in circumstances that have esculated out of control. The parent strikes out at the kid in an act of utter emotional, physical and mental frustration and exhaustion. The child has learned to play on the parents latent guilt and sympathy, which likely stems from a family crisis the kid feels but can not understand or express. There's no excuse, but its a genuine tragedy.

Donnmathan

That last post wandered into an area I can actually agree with, JGL - we will likely never see eye-to-eye. So painfully true.

This is all well and good - you believe that the two violations of human rights listed are wrong. Excellent. Spanking does not violate any human rights, especially not the ones you listed above. It violates neither the right to self-determination nor does it cause mutilation (beatings may, but not spankings). As to the third, I am not familiar with any arguement against it outside of pure morals; as it happens, I think that particular method is excessive, but the end result is the same. Nor do I quite understand the moral arguements - they seem to be either in the area of suffering or general repulsiveness. The stoned person, if the execution is monitored, is going to wind up dead - they will no longer give a care about suffering, and there is no such thing as a pretty death, just one that is easier on the viewers. As arguements for the effect of stoning on those forced to watch, both are valid points, but I really don't think the deceased will say much. Now prove that the application of punishment by a recognized authority figure is a violation of human rights, and we can outlaw spanking - and let everyone out of the prisons. Spanking does not violate any human rights, espescially not the ones you listed above.

I have given my position in no uncertain terms, and you have persistantly responded with a request for that which cannot exist on either side of the arguement: a solid, always-works-where-nothing-else-will example. I responded that such a thing is impossible on either side of the case - punishment styles are as many and varied as the children they are applied to. You repeat your assertion that personality has NOTHING to do with it, and repeat your request for an example. 'Round and 'round we go, and for two simple reasons. First, you refuse to admit that I have stated a scientific case for the application of spanking as a punishment, and second, that you are riding the wave of popular opinion, with no verifiable FACT to back up your claim that spanking should never be applied to any child. You claim justification in morality, which is sandy ground to build any logical arguement on. Then again, you have also resorted to calling myself, and the others that support spanking, a host of vile and undeserved names; not a good way to win arguements.

What becomes painfully obvious is this: you were, by your own admission, beaten as a child, and the experience has made you sour (justifiably so) on spanking. You base your claims on this experience, and on the fact that one man in England managed to raise his children, and they theirs, without physical punishment. If it is so in this case, so should it be in every case - that is the sum and total of your experience. By that arguement, ANYONE who wants to become a billionare like Bill Gates should be able to easily do so - he did it! So why do we not have whole continents of billionares? Because individuals think differently, have different temperments, circumstances, and backgrounds, very few of which actually lend them to the teachings of the get-rich books. Bottom line - there is NO ONE, TRUE WAY! Oh and if you really believe that the vast majority wouldn't like getting rich, then I must question your understanding of human nature. Accrording to your logic, it should be easy enough to do...

The part you simply will never justify outside of your pop-culture-child-psychology/morality is that you wish to apply your standards to all of society. That is as silly as someone trying to ban football because they got injured in their yard playing with one as a kid. I have actually heard of someone using your arguements as a basis for illegalizing contact sports, claiming the moral high ground just as loudly. I, on the other hand, have faith that the end of the Reign of the Compassionate Conservatives will see a lull in this rediculous push to legislate morality, and we can go back to being a free country. I do not thing the question will be solved permanently either way, as there will always be a crusader out the fighting to replace 'what will work best' with 'what is morally best'; the two are not mutually inclusive, a fact which seems to escape you.

In the mean time, I have a strong scientific reason for supporting spanking and have stated it. As you have responded with pseudo-science, opinion, abuse, and unfalsifiable belief, I will continue to believe as I do. BTW - so, I'm a failure now, too, eh?

dk

One question Claudia.

Do you think humility is a virtue?
YES: Then how does a person aquire humility?
NO: Then is arrogance a virtue?

It seems to me humility is a virtue acquired by humiliation. Arrogance is a vice that precedes a fall. By a fall I mean the false sense of superiority that leads youth to believe themselves infallible and invulnerable.

Donnmathan

Found something that just might be relevant to our little discussion...

Link to story

Claudia

I do not think humility is a virtue per se. To have some humility is good, and to have some arrogance for young people is healthy (note: I say some, it is not black and white, in this case I prefer to stay in the grey area). But I do not think that humility is learned by humiliation. It is learned when I give my kids more and more opportunuity to know people thay can admire, and they learn humility by comparison to these persons.
When I say some arrogance can be good, it means some confidence in their own value, and to be able to think that they can be right when other are wrong (but they must also know that it is not always the case).
Some arrogance is one of the key points to be able to resist to peer pressure, and this is one of the most useful things you can learn to the kids. Too bad if it leads them to have opinions different from their parents, but they are not our clones.
I want to have kids able to oppose me if they are convinced they are right. My role is to persuade them I am right, not to force them to submit.
Up to now, i do not think I have failed in my parent role (but of course I have not finished yet to educate my kids)

JGL53

Yep.