Bait

Hi Amazon,
Told ya I’d get back to you. (sorry folks...long one)

>>> Whew...this thread has been quite the intellectual workout. I thought I would respond to your responses to my answers (did that make sense?) regarding some of the more general topics of faith.
Here we go:

I agree…

“(clipped)."

>>Amazon: I didn't mean to imply that Christianity doesn't make sense to anybody, I was only speaking for myself. You have obviously done some reading on the subject, but have you tried any books from a non-believing point of view?

Yes, I have…and although they have some very good, intellectual points, they are not able to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. I admit, they can cause doubt themselves, they can create a ton of questions that cannot be readily answered…logically (which was why I “gave up”, I could not logically prove my point)…but they cannot prove anything they are saying either.

>>How I came to be an atheist was due partly to daring to read books whose perspectives disagreed with mine. If you choose not to do that, it's not criminal, but it's harder to debate on a subject without knowing the other team's side of the story.

I agree, which is why I choose to bump heads (in good nature) with one of the hardest nuts to crack in the first place, Miss Diana…(he says with a smile)  I can get a better feel as to the other side’s points…and it sharpens my own wits.


>>As for Christians sharing the "good news", I am of the opinion that it is an arrogant intrusion on a very personal subject, if that sharing was not invited.

This one I totally agree too…no argument. I get irked sometimes because I see people get turned off just because some good intentioned Christian goes way too far. I’m not one of “those”…ok? (Well, I’m a Christian) If you do not WANT to believe, I cannot, nor have the right to try and force it. If you ask me directly HOW to go about it, that’s a different story, but till then, I’ll only debate bible, etc. for fun.

>>>Particularly because Christians have told me that they are commanded by the bible to spread the news far and wide, but that non-believers doing the same thing are "pushing their views".

We’re commanded to spread the news…not browbeat. If someone sees how I live, and my attitude, and how well my life is going…and they ask why…they invited and I’ll tell them. Otherwise…

>>>Obviously, that chaps my hide. I am not implying that you feel that way, that is just one of my reasons for my opinion

I’m sorry you feel that way, and that you think all us Christians are that way…we’re not. Besides, everyone who knows me, knows I’m in a category all by my lonesome…and I’m known to be a total nutcase.
.
>>>Amazon: Recently, I wrote out a short list of why I don't believe. Here are some of the items from that list:
>>>>1. "Miracles" - The everyday variety are what I am referring to. A miracle is something that cannot occur in nature. Have there been objective reports of events that absolutely can not occur in nature? Not to my knowledge. If something amazing happens, even with perfect timing, that has a natural explanation and has happened before, it is not a miracle - it is a rare event with nothing supernatural required to explain it. If a rare event has not yet been explained, I have confidence that an objective, falisfiable >>explanation will be discovered in time.

“you have confidence”…in other words, you believe?
Changing water to wine, healing leprosy, raising the dead, raising from the dead…reported accounts of things not occurring naturally, especially in the manner and speed they were done…ie: miracle by your definition. But since I was not there (or you) these things would have to be accepted with faith...now. I will grant you that, because there is no proof.
But to me, I disagree with your definition. I think of the improbability of life itself, even based on the scientific explanations of how…to me that is a miracle. I think the improbability of creatures such as we humans evolving to a mental level such as what we have (even to be able to debate)…and we are the “only” species on earth with that level…none of the other species comes close….to me THAT is scientifically impossible, or at least highly improbable (and science has NOT fully explained why, or how, they just have a theory). Why is it that the next level down of intelligence here on earth, that there are several species that have it….but only ONE (humans) at our level. If we can exist with such higher level than the other creatures of the earth….why could not there be another being that much or more higher than us…such as God?


>>>>2. Attributing Events to a Deity - this is SO frustrating. Especially when good things are credited to god, but bad things are the fault of people. Case in point: The 11-yr-old girl abducted by her parochial school principal, taken across state lines, and perhaps sexually abused. She was found and rescued by vigilant, skilled police officers. Who did the parents thank for their daughter's return? God. Why didn't they also curse god for allowing her to be taken by one of his own minions?

Actually, you are forgetting the enemy of God, who the Bible blames for these things. That is Lucifer…the destroyer, who hates God so much that he goes about trying to hurt and destroy that which God loves most…us. Those parents also probably thanked the police officers. but they probably thanked God for giving police officers vigilant enough to find the child, and for keeping the child alive while they looked. I'd personally thank everyone even remotely connected in finding the child...if it were my child.

Then there is life, in general. Flowers come from other flowers, not from god. Humans come from other humans, not from god.

In your opinion...but even giving you that, now perhaps, but how did flowers come into being to start with? How is it that they are able to keep reproducing? Same question with humans, with dogs, with cats.


>>>The colors of the sunset are refracted light, etc. The processes are well understood science and publicly available information for anyone who wishes to learn about it. Why do people say silly things like, "look at the lovely day god made for us?"

But how did light originate? Let alone, HOW did it come about that refracted light gives colors? Or better yet, how is it we can even see color? (many animals cannot) How did color start? Where does it come from? Why does it exist?

>>>> It's willful ignorance, and I won't be party to it.

Those people probably DO know that a rainbow is refracted light, and are probably not ignorant. They are just acknowledging their belief in who (or what) created it (the refracted) in the first place. As to you being a party to it…your choice, but why put them down because they believe different than you?

>>>3. Harm is committed in the name of gods - this also comes in as my personal favorite for how to prove whether there is a god or not. Why would a god allow his creations to misrepresent him in such a horrible way?

(Remember…you asked these questions) Yes, harm has been committed, but who’s fault is that really? Why blame him (God) for stuff we do? No one wants to take the blame for anything they themselves do anymore. First off, you (meaning everyone)are free to believe however you wish (or not, and/or pervert beliefs…or not). Second (and this is Christian belief), God has a very powerful enemy bent on trying to hurt God by hurting us. Personally, I think it’s not an allow thing (although he allows you to make up your own mind)…as much as a spiritual creature (Lucifer?) bent on harming us, and influencing people to go against God’s will. The rules are there…if everyone followed those rules, there would not be any of the harm, no murders, etc….but we have the choice, to follow the rules..or not. The fact is, there are those who do not, some do not even follow human laws. (I know, religious stuff…you can skip if you wish )Think of it this way (which is how the Bible says to think of it btw) think of God as a human father, and we (humans) are his kids…with the rights and freedoms as such (with authority over say…the family dog). Father says “don’t feed to the dog that bottle of antifreeze because it could kill him”. One of his kids then goes ahead and feeds the dog the antifreeze, and the dog dies. All of the rest of the family (including the father) is hurt by the loss of the dog…but although the father is angry with his kid, he still loves him, the kid is still his. It is NOT the fathers fault that the kid fed to the dog, the poison. The antifreeze had a good, valid use, and the father a valid reason to keep it around…but the kid disobeyed and misused it, not the father.

A better analogy is if the father was a doctor, a researcher…who had a vial of some contagion. Told his kids…”do not touch that vial…it will kill you, it’ll infect you with a virus hard to cure.” One of the kids ignores the father, thereby also infecting all of his brothers and sisters (hurting them). The father then has to cure the illness…but not before the kids are sick, a couple may even die. The fathers fault? He may have had the vial for a reason, a reason to keep it…(to find a cure?). He warned the kids…may even have locked it up, but the kid disobeyed. Then what if the cure could only be administered with a shot…and one of the kids refuse to get that shot? What if that kid was an adult with the freedom to choose whether to get it (the shot) or not? The father may be physically able to force him…but? Whose fault is it if the kid refuses, runs away, and then dies? To Christians, Jesus is the cure (the shot). But you have the freedom to choose…or not. Just like you have the right to believe…or not.

>>>Can he not control the way he is used? Does he not care? Is it a game to him? If, suddenly, no one could do any harm to another person or animal in the name of a god, then I would be on the road to believing.

But then again, he could also just make you believe…with no independent mind, no freedom, a bit like a robot…is that what you want? You don't want to be able to think? Yes, he COULD control that, if he took away our freedom. He does care…which is why he gave us a way out…if we chose to take it. But it is OUR choice. He can, and does guide (my belief now)…but doesn’t force... (I believe he's following his own rules – again, my belief) If you have an enemy (Lucifer?) bent on slurring your name…takes out ads in the paper saying all kinds of things about you. Things that were not true, like he took an essay you wrote in high school (or college), changed a few of the words so it seemed you were saying something you weren’t (like you condone murder instead of detesting it)…then published it, telling everyone it’s a translation of your work (say to German...back toEnglish). A lot of people then started to say “Gee, Amazon thinks murder is ok”…get the point? Not a game…but even God follows his own rules, including the ones about our freedom...and I think even he has enemies.

(my stuff clipped for brevity)

>>>Amazon: My conclusion that a god does not mete out judgments or punishments on earth is that reward does not automatically match desert in people's lives. Devoted religionists who spend their entire lives helping other people still get stricken by horrible diseases and sudden tragic death when they could have done so much more for humanity by staying alive. People who oppress, lie, cheat, and steal still win the lottery and live to ripe old ages in reasonable health. If there was a just deity, how could he let such injustice exist? And since people are constantly asking that, why hasn't anyone come up with a good answer?

There is a good answer…but only if you believe that this life we’re in, is not all there is. And to answer about some even in this life…yes, good people get sick, and die…sometimes suffer physically. But they have something money and things cannot buy...peace within, assurance of something better coming. Yes, there are those who lie, cheat etc.and live long lives. But they are always looking over their shoulders, afraid someone is lying to them (because they do), not trusting anyone or anything. They never get to experience peace within. They do not experience the calm, because they are always in turmoil. Yes, I think they have their own punishment in this life, a void if you will...something missing. As to how could he allow injustice? Does he really? I know of a saying I’ve never seen fail…”time wounds all heels”. It only may seem that way, because you do not see what is happening to them…in places you cannot see. Guilt, shame, etc. for example.

>>>As for eternal punishment, why would a just deity punish a "soul" eternally for violating a sin or sins within a finite lifetime? Isn't that a little extreme?

Why do we put some murderers to death? They only killed once…and isn’t killing them the same as what they did to someone else? Why do we put people in jail for years for stuff they only took moments to do (such as stealing or selling drugs)? Isn’t that a little extreme? Put a 70 year old man in jail for 30 years for grand theft is a life sentence to him…a little extreme? Maybe we should only punish him for a month…unless he has heart trouble, then only a couple of days. Define justice.

To Christians (what makes our faith unique I think) is that you are not any longer punished for the sin or sins…because that is why Jesus died for us (my faith, belief…without physical proof...explaining my belief). We’re punished for not accepting the gift given…we are already under the death sentence, already have a potentially fatal illness….but it is your choice to accept the presidential pardon commuting your sentence, or accept the medicine available, or not. You put your own neck into the noose…not him. He keeps begging you not to. Again, my faith…no proof.

(my stuff clipped)

>>>Amazon: This is a real sticky point with non-believers. The whole free will vs. omniscient being thing. If an omniscient being created a human, he would know whether or not that human would eventually turn away from him, yes? If the god didn't know, then it is not omniscient. You can't have both. So, what's the point of a creator punishing something it knew from the start would go against it's will? It sounds, also, that you are making excuses for delays, which implies that god makes errors. So is the god you believe in omniscient or not?

And I admit this is one I really do not know, I don’t have all of the answers. In fact, I do not (personally) know where in the Bible it says specifically he is Omniscient . Perhaps Diana knows the answer to that one (or ex-preacher). And I’m not saying he’s not Omniscent either BTW. I’m saying that I don’t know the answer to that one. As to the delay thing….I’m not saying there even is a delay. Are we going by God’s days…or ours. Are we viewing time from his reference…or ours? If he is delaying…could it be for our benefit?

***Ron: "Or did we, as free beings, disobey and make ourselves defective, damaged ourselves? Don't know if you have kids, but are you telling me that you would never punish them? With God out of the picture, that means YOU make your kids, did YOU intentionally make them defective, so you have to punish them? What aren't they born Rhodes scholars? Same basic argument you're using. We're his children, given freedom to choose, we chose badly, and now he's blamed for it."

>>>Amazon: This goes back to free will vs. omniscience again. Also, we humans are subject to the same natural law as animals and plants.

Are we? How many animals or plants that you know of that can think of ways to go into outer space? Or even have a discussion such as what we are doing right now? How many can fly 4 x the speed of sound? Or make televisions? How many can figure out how to communicate to others of its kind on the other side of the world?


>>>Genetics will sometimes result in imperfect offspring. If a perfect being was in charge, then I would expect much better quality of creation.

But at first it was perfect…then it became corrupted (according to belief). But then again, look at creation a little closer…even so called imperfect offspring has a use…if only to feed something else. You cannot design anything more perfect than the circle of life. Left alone, everything works…perfectly, balanced, without flaw. Everything has a use of some sort…pretty amazing to me. IMHO, It’s the interference of us humans that cause imperfection (and we even have trouble still with off balancing nature).

>[/b]
***Ron: "Or if one is convinced in the supernatural reasons, why is that so wrong? Why wait (for another reason) when one does not have to?"

>>>Amazon: This seems to be one of the most difficult concepts to introduce to believers. How does the supernatural get inserted into any situation?

When one observes the perfection of nature for one…or something happens totally against the norm “fixing” something that could not be fixed any other way (my case). You haven’t told me why it is so wrong? If I believe in God…any god for that matter….so????

>>>Was god observably THERE?

I believe Yes…There have been those who have observed him (Adam, Moses, etc.)…and reported such…but they were not believed. There were those who heard him (Noah, etc.) same thing. In fact, now days, there is doubt if the some of the ones who reported the event even existed.

>>>Did something impossible happen that is not explainable in nature?

Again, I believe yes, and it was reported…people did not believe it..(see above…water/wine, etc.).

>>>Coincidence is coincidence, no matter how unlikely.

In your opinion and belief… When the likely-hood of the event gets to an infinite number…and the timing is absolutely perfect….would it not make you wonder? May not be a miracle by your definition…but?

***Ron: "A concession? Albeit a little one? Anything is possible? Even perchance that the God of the bible could be real? Seriously, I really do not know the answer to this one. Perhaps he made us capable, and we don't use what's given to us, perhaps he gave us the answers, we just do not want to believe them, perhaps some of the "proofs" were there, and have been lost merely due to the passage of a great amount of time."

>>>Amazon: I have a problem with the original assumption. I see no evidence of god that cannot also be explained in natural terms.

Except you cannot (nor has any scientist been able to) really explain the perfection of the natural world itself…what makes it work so perfectly? They have a theory on how it could have come into existence (life that is)…but they cannot nor prove it…or duplicate it. Ok…explain in natural terms how we humans can advance to such of an intelligence…but apes did not. We’re descended from them are we not? Since they were here first…how come they are not the smarter…and us “dumber” (though sometimes I wonder…&#61514 Explain in natural terms how we could even be having this conversation/debate.

>>>The characteristics of the god of the bible - omniscient yet administering free will, omnipresent yet unobservable, unmeasureable, and silent, omnibenevolent, yet capable of extreme atrocities for petty reasons (teasing a bald guy, touching the ark of the covenant, etc.), and neglect defined as "his mysterious ways" - cannot co-exist. Either some of the definition is wrong, or that entity does not exist.

And I will grant you the (our) definition may be somewhat wrong. As to benevolent…the Bible says he is only to a certain point. As to Omnipresent…he’s not always silent(IMO)…we just forget to listen. As observable(IMO)…we forget to look. As to Omniscient…well, I already told you I do not know that one. Teasing a bald guy? (lost me on that one) Touching the ark…disobedience (haven’t you heard…the latest “science” says it probably was a conductor of sorts…or a battery of sorts…electrically charged, touching it then becoming a shocking experience, so says science).

***Ron: "Yet NOT ONE of you conceded that it is even possible, rather, I was ridiculed, and statements like the stone would have to be the size of a head or greater, and other such drivel was presented, as well as many attempts at humor at my expense. This is scientifically proving me wrong?"

[/B]
>>>Amazon: I hope my fellow infidels will allow me to apologize for us coming across as unwelcoming or intolerant. Feel free, infidels, to flame me if you intended to be hostile and don't want to be hospitable.

Well actually you guys have turned out to be very hospitable, (but not the first forum I was put into). No need to apologize, hopefully we’re all friends now.

>>>My posts can come off in an offensive tone, as well, and my excuse is that I am very isolated in a world of unbending superstition and I am constantly having to defend my position of non-belief.

Sorry bout that…I’m constantly having to defend my belief…different side of same coin…neh? You want to disbelieve…your choice.

>>>It gets frustrating having to enlighten people that atheism does not equal evil, that not sharing the mainstream view does not make me "lost".

For the record…I don’t think you are evil. And I’m not exactly mainstream either…we’ll leave it at that.


>>>I thank you for taking the time to defend your views here, and I hope you return.

I haven’t left…I just didn’t win the argument …lost the debate…know my limits.

>>>>One of my favorite quotes comes from a sitcom called "Sportsnight", starring Robert Guillaume. His character once said,
"When you're dumb, surround yourself with smart people. When you're smart, surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you."
Welcome, Ron.

Oooooh….I like it….you complimented me…right?  Thank you!!! Surrounding myself with disagreeable…er….I mean those smart people who disagree with me is exactly my intention. (snort..snicker) Don’t take offense…just kidding.

Bests,
Ron

Amazon

Yes, Ron, it was a compliment.

I want very much to respond to your post, but I'm about to head off to Italy for a couple weeks. I hope to be able to address this when I return, if the thread is still going.

Good talkin' to ya!

MOJO-JOJO

Ron sounds like many of the Bible School teachers I've listened to in the past.....just enough knowledge and debating skills to be dangerous [to himself], but a moth that will hopefully become a butterfly after spending some time here.

I especially liked this reasoning:

"I find no where in the Bible that prohibits drinking an alcoholic drink...Jesus himself made wine from water - only against getting drunk (anyone who has had a hangover knows the why to that one - duh)."

OH-ho! so THAT is the reason, har har har har, PRAISE God and pass me a caffeine free Pepsi, please....

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: MOJO-JOJO ]</p>