Keith Russell

The ultimate end of hedonism is Larry Niven's 'wire-tripping', where one has an electrode surgically implanted into one's brains, which continually provides the maximum amount of pleasure one's brain is capable of producing.

This would allow the true hedonist to fully express his beliefs, until he dies of thirst--in about two and a half days...

K

VivaHedone

Possibly some type of intravenous drip is required?

Keith Russell

viva, an IV-drip would prolong the inevitable, but someone other than the wire-head would need to monitor it; the wirehead wouldn't care enough to make the effort...

K

Rusting Car Bumper

I think some terms and ideas are being thrown about without careful consideration.

The term "purpose" was used as in, "The purpose of human life is to maximize pleasure, while minimizing pain." Who assigns this purpose? What is meant by "purpose" here?

The fact that living things try to maximize please and reduce pain does not mean that we OUGHT to do that as a rule. To adopt a stance that we should is a naturalistic fallacy.

I point to Frank Herbert's Dune where there is the test of the "Gom Jabbar". In the story Paul (the main character) is tested by a "witch" of a particular order. He is asked to put his hand in a box which simulates pain. He feels the sensation of his hand burning and flesh peeling off. His hand is not physically restained and he is free to remove his hand from the box. He is then TOLD that a needle is placed at his neck and that if he removes his hand then the nedle will be plunged into his neck and he will die. He must therefore control his animal reflex to remove the hand and endure the pain for the result of removing it will be death. Comments are then made that passing this test (i.e. not removing your hand until the test is over) is a sign of humanhood. That is, one is able to rationally and by will control animal instincts.

I think this narrative account (which of course we can find real world examples of) demonstrates problems with a hedonistic philosophy.

DC

Pyrrho

What problems with hedonism do you imagine that it demonstrates? With that test as you have described it, one endures the pain, which will be short lived, because one expects to continue living and having pleasure in the future. If one were going to be in agony for life, then it would be a different matter.

VivaHedone

He would if he was a true hedonist, since topping up the drip would result in greater overall pleasure than pain.

excreationist

Of course they don't... they would find some things genuinely undesireable. They might just feel comforted by certain kinds of pain... they might feel that in their worldview, they deserve to be punished, and them suffering involves justice being done... (they'd get some comfort from that) Or they might like the excitement of certain kinds of suffering (like being whipped)...

Excitement and adrenaline involves pleasure... that would be their motivation... and perhaps to prove to themselves that they are men, etc...
Then there are masochists that have a poor self-image... their intentional suffering would involve them seeking justice for themselves - giving themselves what they think they deserve based on how they were raised or something. I think that a fundamental pleasure is "connectedness" - it is a kind of comforting warm-fuzzy feeling. When people think some justice is done, they'd get that pleasure, to varying degrees. During injustices, this pleasure would decrease and turn into a "pain" - it would be like the despair of alienation and confusion.

It would probably feel comforted if its offspring is safe and distressed if its offspring is hurt... and those desires could outweigh other priorities.

I think pleasure also includes feelings of well-being and comfort... not just very sensual pleasures. As far as maximizing pleasure and/or minimizing pain goes, it would usually involve our *expected* pleasure and pain, so we might endure some avoidable pain (like exerting our muscles) or choose a lesser pleasure in order to seek the optimal goal. Some people have learnt better self-control than others - and think more in terms of future goals than near-sighted self-gratification.

excreationist

From http://www.hedweb.com/hedethic/hedonist.htm#humans
Basically the rat has a lever hooked up to the pleasure centre of its brain, and when it presses the lever, it receives a high dose of pleasure.

That site also talks about futuristic ideas where people could have a lot of pleasure and still be productive.

pmurray

Or more subtly, organisms that do not experience pleasure from activities related to survival and reproduction tend to go extinct.

Rusting Car Bumper

Basically you are implying that hedonism is unfalsifiable. No matter what scenario one could describe, real or not, then one could interpret it as pleasure over pain.

If Paul removes his hand from the box in order to remove his hand from the sensation of painful and searing flesh then this is an example of him seeking to "maximize pleasure and reduce pain." (even though he dies) However, you have already argued that the opposite choice is also "maximizing pleasure and reducing pain" because "one expects to continue living and having pleasure in the future." The end result being that "maximize pleasure and reduce pain" is meaningless. Regardless of choice one still weasels the interpretation to fit the plan.

One can always fall on the excuse that "one expects to continue living and having pleasure in the future." Therefore, *any* decision can simply be worked into the framework by working over the interpretation of the decision. It makes the word hedonism meaningless.

DC