Gurdur

An interestingly faceted thread.

On the subject of military discipline:
I once knew an Australian soldier who blew up an (momentarily unoccupied) American military helicopter, using a hand-grenade, back in the 1980's, while on a joint military exercise in Northern Australia.

(He was understandbly emotional at that time, given a certain situation that arose then and there)

He was of course courtmartialed; his only punishment was to pay AUS $ 1.80, the total cost of Australian stamps on various postal letters inside the USA helicopter).

Ah well, as you were, men.

Celsus

Thanks Vorkosigan. I enjoy being painted by your racist brush.

Vorkosigan

No problem. I live to amuse people who shout "racism!" any time anyone posts anything realistic and intelligent about an Asian culture(s).

If you have anything intelligent to say, by all means post it.

Vorkosigan

Celsus

Sigh... We've been here before. First your accusations that most Asians "beat the living crap out of children" (you apologised but obviously haven't learnt anything for the incident), now the "guarantee" that "Asians treat each other far worse than [Westerners?] do". Crime is always a pathetic example for trying to paint the majority with. Surely you know the difference? I'm not stooping to your level. You're not being realistic or intelligent in such cases.

Celsus (ex-joejoejoe)

Edit: Sorry, I don't want to derail this thread. Vork, if you have anything more to say, take it to PM with me.

Gurdur

Michael (Vorkosigan), Celsus has been one of the most intelligent, polite and restrained posters on this board over a long length of time (under the name JoeJoeJoe).

I suggest to you that your post is very inappropriate.
Tim

Vorkosigan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Celsus
Sigh... We've been here before. First your accusations that most Asians "beat the living crap out of children" (you apologised but obviously haven't learnt anything for the incident),

Don't recall apologizing for truth telling. Also, I repeated this to my Taiwanese wife, who laughed and said that you had no idea what you are talking about.

now the "guarantee" that "Asians treat each other far worse than [Westerners?] do".

The feet have voted, Celsus. The flow of people is from the East to the West, not vice versa.

You're from Singapore. Move to China. Vietnam. Cambodia. Thailand. Taiwan. Laos. Watch parents interact with their kids. Hitting of kids is extremely common in Asia, in all the school systems and at home. I am sorry that you cannot face this simple fact, well-dcoument in newspaper articles, academic research and in Ministry of Education policies in most major Asian countries -- Taiwan in the 1980s, Korea in 1999, for example -- that forbade the hitting of children in schools. Shit, Celsus, I've taught elementary school in two different parts of taiwan and personally witnessed hitting in all but one of my classes. Not to mention my own daughter was hit the other day. It's a measure of the progress here that this was regarded as wrong once the school authorities found out.

I have supplied copious document and discussion. Child abuse is widespread in Asia. How many URLs, conferences, discussions and academic list points need I put up? I can't help it if some people think all negative comments are "racism" because they don't want to think about the world as it actually is, but in my neighborhood every single kid is hit except ours. And everyone in this neighborhood is middle class or better. Think about it.

Here's a WHO report:
WHo Report
"We think the report will surprise a lot of people because so many have held firmly to the idea that this is a disease of Western society, that it doesn��t happen in developing countries," Runyan said. "The data found and reported here make it sound like developing countries have an even greater problem than richer countries, perhaps because of a lack of training and opportunities for parents."

Just a couple of racist researchers, you know, painting negative generalizations about the developing world.


Crime is always a pathetic example for trying to paint the majority with. Surely you know the difference? I'm not stooping to your level. You're not being realistic or intelligent in such cases.

The issue is not crime, Celsus, but social relations. Again you cast the issue incorrectly. What is it like to live in a culture where mobsters underpin all social relations? Where, when business negotiate, they bring a mobster? Where, when people buy and sell land, they bring a mobster? Where the fucking garlic trade is controlled by the mob? Where 200,000 women, at the height of the economic boom, worked in the sex trade in Taipei, a city of about 2.5 million? Do you think they were all free-lancing? 1/3 of local officials here have links to organized crime. In taiwan there are universities controlled by organized crime gangs -- last year the Minister of Education was threatened by mobsters when he intervened in a dispute about the school. In taiwan the president attended the funeral of the island's most prominent mobster, and political figures in taiwan, japan, China and Korea frequently appear in public with gangsters. Think about how social relations in those societies must work.

No, on second thought, don't think about it. That would be racist, wouldn't it?

Last month a motorcycle hit my car. Within minutes, his friends gathered, including some small-time mobsters. The death threats began, physical abuse, comments about how cute my kids were and wouldn't it be a shame if something happened to them. A "witness" was produced who claimed I ran the red light and was speeding. My wife was followed home by a mobster who threatened her again. I have also been threatened by mobsters for driving issues. A friend once accidently bumped a mobsters mercedes. he got out and smashed each one of her windows, despite the fact that there was no damage to his car. Last month the man who figured out how to crack the lottery ticket system had to flee for his life -- the lotto is mob-controlled and they didn't take kindly to the interruption in the money flow.

It's not "crime." Calling it "crime" is trivializing and misunderstanding it, giving it a western label for a pervasive eastern practice. How it really works is like when my friend sued a doctor for malpractice. That day he filed suit, the first death threats began. His dog's throat was cut. Mobsters followed him. The final death threat was delivered by the police. When my wife was being pushed out of the school she founded, we used to get late-night death threats from the friendly local mobster.

So don't call me racist, Celsus, because you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.

But you don't have to take my word for it. See Jane K. Winn's work on organized crime and social relations in Taiwan, for example, on how organized crime is often used in business relations... Not many academics write on this, but if you drive around Taichung here, I'll point out the loan sharks who advertize freely along the roadways, and the taxis with "1 hour/$900" on the back of the window -- and they ain't talkin' about piano lessons. "Social relations" in Asia would be "crime" elsewhere. Society is heavily interpentrated by organized crime gangs. Or rather, there is no point where society ends and organized crime begins.

Edit: Sorry, I don't want to derail this thread. Vork, if you have anything more to say, take it to PM with me.

I see. You can call me a racist publicly, but if I respond, I must do so privately.

And no, Gurdur, I will not apologize for my response to being called a racist by someone who clearly is unwilling or unable to engage with the topic at hand, and who hasn't a fucking clue about the realities of life here.

And you know, if I had made a true negative generalization about the US, or simply a positive generalization about Asians, even an untrue one, nobody would have accused me of stereotyping. There is definitely a racist double standard here, but it is not mine.

Vorkosigan

sullster

Thanks for your observations. I hope that we can keep the thread focused on the Korean crisis.

Japan and how the rest of Asia views it, certainly is a big factor. If the US washed its hands of defending SK, Japan would be put into a position to increase its defenses including nuclear arms. A re-armed Japan is a terror to all of Asia, who recall the Japanese aggression of the 1930's and 1940's.

The US presence in SK, Okinowa and elsewhere in the Pacific, assures that Japan will not have to have a large military.

Memories of WW2 attrocities committed by Japanese armies and still not admitted to by Japan, still enrage China and Korea. We Americans have a historical sense that goes back a few hours but China and Korea still feel the pain from many decades ago.

Japan is indeed a large factor in all the considerations of the Korean crisis.

Monkeybot

Literally - there are still villages in Manchuria which are at risk for various contagious diseases (I want to say bubonic plague but I'll have to check) thanks to Japanese biological warfare. Plus, Japan hasn't issued an official apology for its wartime actions, much less helped clean up its messes. Then there is the texbook issue...

Yeah, China and Korea are still pretty pissed off.

Direct Current

From a military point of view, forget Seoul. TBut that is politically impossible. SK has said they will not surrender Seoul. I'm sure the 24 million Koreans will not stay to watch the show and a FLOOD of humanity will stream south. NK has enough artillery in place to throw 1/2 million shells in SK for 4 straight hours. The number is almost meaningless because its so big its hard to grasp.

I agree pre-emptive nuke strikes from subs off the NK coast are ideal followed by biological and chemical attacks to fix forward deployed NK forces and separate them from reinforcements.

This war is going to be ugly. If you have 1500 nukes and they are willing to absorb that punishment and keep on coming......?

Zar

Vork,

For the record, I've heard your points and am considering them. But for now, I'll bow out. Thanks for the frank discussion.