emotional

That's the Big Bang, when Time began. The fabric of space-time and all of matter/energy originated from that singular event. I'd call it Creation.

Barcode

Yup. My Catholic g/f often accuses me of being too rational and asks what is the harm in fulfilling an emotional need, which leads me to strongly suspect it's a psychological security blanket for her -- although I'm not going to dare to voice that view.

She's right up to a point ... fulfilling an emotional need is all well and good ... but it's intellectually dishonest to believe in things that are unsubstianted and vanish once you inject a bit of logic into the equation.

Personally, I find it far more emotionally fulfilling to base my views upon what is verifiable ... I derive greater satisifaction from learning about the natural world, rather than positing grandiose supernatural explanations for things which serve no purpose other than to fill in the gaps in my understanding.

I don't know how to argue with people who admit it's an emotional need ... other than pointing out " feeling " something, does not make it so ...

Shadowy Man

Well the "standard model" of cosmology has the universe's "age" at 13.7 +/- 0.2 billion years. However, that doesn't mean that the universe was "created" then. Especially if you believe that inflationary theory is an accurate representation of the universe. We know that the universe used to be very hot and dense and has been expanding since then, but exactly what was going on in those "early" times is still open to debate.

These are not facts, they are areas of active research.

Rusting Car Bumper

In my mind the only reason deism became fashionable was because although faith based religions were rationally faltering, there was no alternative to explain many things such as the creation of life and the universe.

Deism became fashionable before evolution, plate tectonic theory, quantum mechanics, germ theory of disease, big bang, electromagnetic theory, relativity, and on and on.

Deism was a quite reasonable middle ground given that the superstition of the Bible was clearly false and yet many things about the world seemed unexplainable.

Note I use the word "was". Deism can no longer be supported by the same arguments given that we know so much more about the world.

DC

emotional

Deism is still valid.

We know evolution took place. We know the particles have the ability to self-organise. The question is, how did they get that ability? Have you ever seen an evolutionary design computer simulation without an intelligent programmer to set it up in the first place? To claim the particles popped out just like that, fully capable of self-organising, is an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Much more reasonable, then, that in the beginning was an Intelligence who designed the parameters for evolution to take place. This is as reasonable as positing a Richard Dawkins as a setter of parameters for a Biomorphs simulation.

Evolution, once begun, can take place without any external help (that goes for abiogenesis as well). But evolution can't start by itself. It needs a starter - a creator of matter together with the ability of matter to self-organise.

Shadowy Man

Ah, but this is where it gets interesting. What are the parameters necessary?

Is it sufficient to set up the charges of the electron and the proton and the rules that govern nuclear reactions? Does all of chemistry follow from that, including self-replicating molecules?

emotional

All laws of chemistry.

SimplyAtheistic

Hmmm, lets see. To program the parameters for evolution we would need a computer powerful enough to completely simulate every single atom in our universe, if you can find one, let me know. This does not make evolution an extraordinary claim. Saying there is some magical god of which we have absolutely no proof is an extraordinaroy claim.
Jake

emotional

You say a simulation of evolution needs a very powerful computer in order to take place, but the real thing could take place with no external programmer at all?! My, this is beyond belief!

It is not. It is logical to assume that the algorithmic process of evolution has a programmer behind it. Whether you wish to call it God or aliens is another matter; but such has to be, and the claim that there wasn't is extraordinary and has the burden of proof.

Rusting Car Bumper

Why? Nothing outside the scope of human interaction can be directly observed to have a designer.

In fact, most all of the universe and the structures contained therein can be explained without a designer. It seems then that the designer is the exception.

In fact, in human experience history has shown what time and time again was claimed to be a work of intelligence was nothing of the sort. Thunder and lightning are not war between the gods, and the rain is not their tears. Evil spirits are not causing diseases but microbes are. Comets are not omens from gods but naturally occuring explainable objects.

I can state many examples where natural processes were mistakenly thought the be the work of a designer but you cannot state any cases where a designed process was mistakenly thought to be natural.

Deism has nothing to rest upon but faith.

DC