excreationist

Maybe that's because the patients are *imagining* they are having an OBE and in their dream they don't think there is a neon board on the operating table!

Well actually harddisks can be damaged by shock - especially if they are turned on during the shock. RAM can't (within reason). And the difference in speed is huge. My RAM can read and write data at about 700 Mb/sec I think... but my harddrives can read and write data at maybe 10 Mb/sec. The idea of RAM is to copy harddisk and other data into memory so that it can be worked with faster.
BTW, you could try using "virtual memory" to see what it's like without RAM... try putting only about 8 Mb of RAM into a computer (any less and Windows probably wouldn't start) then run lots of huge programs simultaneously... it would chug along and take minutes to react to whatever you do.
You know I've got nearly a dozen harddrives that have stopped working... but I don't have any RAM that has stopped working... the thing is that harddrives have large-scale *moving* parts which causes wear - unlike RAM, which just has electrons that move.

The thing about harddisks and the information stored on them is that they have a *physical location*. The reason why you can access the data is because it uses a physical mechanism... it's not like you can store gigabytes of stuff in another universe... or access data from another computer which you aren't physically connected to. (Through radio or cable networking equipment, etc)

I think that long-term memories are also stored in a physical location - probably the outer parts of the brain - whatever that's called. I mean memories can be consistently triggered if an electric current is applied to the same part of the brain and people can lose long-term memories because of brain damage... also in Alzheimers, the brain physically is eroded away - and the data would be lost with it.

Does the mind or soul include people's memories? If so, what is happening to people with Alziemers who are losing their memories and behavioural patterns (personality)? Are they just losing contact with their soul, where those memories are stored?

If souls store memories, then I guess memories travel during reincarnation - so people would sometimes be able to remember "past lives". Is there any evidence of that? And why would memories go to all of that trouble being transmitted when virtually all people can't access them? (e.g. I can't remember any of my past lives so what's the point of my "soul" storing the memory?)

Just because particles and things work in discrete non-continuous ways, it doesn't mean that the memories and personality of a person can be magically transferred to the next person in line once they die. BTW, what about population problems? Wouldn't there often be times when there aren't quite enough living organisms around for the souls or a bit too many? So what happens then? Do the souls wait in a spiritual dimension or become ghosts? Or are cells instantly created to meet the demand? Are new souls created sometimes?
There are far more cells than humans in the world... so most souls would be cells and not humans... I think it is a waste of a soul to give it to a cell. Do you think that it is murder to kill some bacteria? e.g. by eating it? I mean it does have a soul after all. Doesn't it? Do plant cells have souls? Or just animal cells? Do dust mites have souls? Are some life forms "higher up" than others? Does it depend on what you did in your lifetime (how enlightened or good you were) as to which thing you reincarnate as? If so, I think it pretty pointless... if my current body is a reward, I wouldn't know, since I don't have any memory of my past life... or maybe my body is a punishment. Since it seems doubtful that I'd remember my previous life in my next life, there doesn't seem to be much reason to be good or become enlightened based purely on the rewards/punishments of the next life... the soul in the next life would somehow be "me" but they probably wouldn't know they're me, and neither would I... on the other hand, at least in the Christian afterlife people probably can remember who they were in the former life.

About people who have "flat-lined"...

from <a href="http://www.alcor.org/FAQs/#Won't%20memories%20be%20lost%20if%20brain%20elect rical%20activity%20stops?" target="_blank">Alcor Cryogenics</a>:
In other words, I think RAM is a good analogy for STM (short-term memory) and the harddisk is a good analogy for LTM... like a harddisk, the data/information remains while the power is turned off. And when you reboot your computer or a patient their long-term memories are still there. I don't think this is a supernatural phenomenon. Do you still think that a harddisk is still a good analogy for what you think a soul or a mind is? And what happens when the person dies? Do their files get copied to a new-born computer (or life-form)? Then someone might revive the old body and the soul returns... perhaps the soul waits around a while before going to a new body just in case the old body can be revived... (though I don't believe in souls)

Seraphim

"Maybe that's because the patients are *imagining* they are having an OBE and in their dream they don't think there is a neon board on the operating table!"

Two reason I could think of:

1. That person having NDE and OBE didn't know there is a neon board there thus don't look for it. Plus, the doctors put the board a bit further away from the operation theater.

2. They are too disoriented to go and look for the Neon board themselves. We are talking about people who has no idea such thing going to happen to you and looking down and seeing someone operating on you is shocking enough.

As for your information about Hard disk, that is all true.

"I think that long-term memories are also stored in a physical location - probably the outer parts of the brain - whatever that's called. I mean memories can be consistently triggered if an electric current is applied to the same part of the brain and people can lose long-term memories because of brain damage... also in Alzheimers, the brain physically is eroded away - and the data would be lost with it."

My reply : Yes, just like a RAM could lose any information cause by power failure or glitch in OS system, but whatever information saved in the hard disk is untouched.

"Does the mind or soul include people's memories? If so, what is happening to people with Alziemers who are losing their memories and behavioural patterns (personality)? Are they just losing contact with their soul, where those memories are stored?"

My reply : No, their soul/Mind remains unchanged. Physical memory such as personality and behavioral pattern is product of the Brain - something you created from childhood till the point you suffer such sickness, it has no bearing in Memory stored in the Mind since it is in Energy state.

"If souls store memories, then I guess memories travel during reincarnation - so people would sometimes be able to remember "past lives". Is there any evidence of that?"

My reply : there are cases of people remembering places, names and events of things they have no recollection of. Such cases had been documented before. I remember one case some mid-1980s where a young boy in Calcutta, India told the Press there about his pervious life as a Supiah (Indian Police working for British government) in 1850s and how he died. He showed his own grave and postpone on the skeleton indicated that there was a bullet hole on the rib where he mentioned before. This are one of many cases.

There are also Hynopsis, but this is a weak evidence since I was reminded in another forum that Hypnosis is subjective to suggestion making by person who is conducting the experiment.

"And why would memories go to all of that trouble being transmitted when virtually all people can't access them? (e.g. I can't remember any of my past lives so what's the point of my "soul" storing the memory?)"

My reply : In order to replie this question, I have to remind you about Sentient being and about Karma (according to Hindusm, Buddhism and Toaist).

As I stated in my 2nd post, Sentient being are one to experience pain, pleasure, longings etc when they attach themselves to the body because the body provide this sensation. From a single-cell organism, it evolve to present day human (and other creatures). Like a database of information which cannot be erased, the Mind bring this forth in each birth and adds more.

In your view point, let's assume you were born as a painter who loved to paint. Painting give you pleasure and without you knowing it, such skills will be imprinted inside your Mind and carry forward to the next life. And in your next life, all you have to do is find your skill.

In same way, so does pain and suffering. All sentient being tries hard to avoid suffering and whatever suffering it has, is imprinted in it's mind and brought forward in next life time where it avoids it unconsciously. Fear of death for example is the most basic fear that ALL creatures has.

"Just because particles and things work in discrete non-continuous ways, it doesn't mean that the memories and personality of a person can be magically transferred to the next person in line once they die. BTW, what about population problems? Wouldn't there often be times when there aren't quite enough living organisms around for the souls or a bit too many? So what happens then? Do the souls wait in a spiritual dimension or become ghosts? Or are cells instantly created to meet the demand? Are new souls created sometimes?"

My reply : Who said soul of a man have to be reborn as a man? And who said that only man is capable of complex thoughts which the Mind could find it suitable as a host?

Creatures such as dolphins and Whale is considered to be intelligent creatures, they could support a Mind of a man.

If a man lived like an animal - uncontrolled sex, drinking, gambling etc, he could end up as animal. This is considered to be Karma -how you live now determines what you will be in the future.

As for my quantum theory, that is just to point out that there IS such process occuring in nature and that I consider Soul/Mind as something in form of energy and not something physical.

As for whether new soul is in a making, I believe so. I stated earlier that Sentient beings are one who is capable of experiencing pain, pleasure and other attachments due to its attachments to physical body, and single-celled organism such as Ameoba is such organism.

"Do you think that it is murder to kill some bacteria? e.g. by eating it? I mean it does have a soul after all. Doesn't it? Do plant cells have souls? Or just animal cells? Do dust mites have souls? Are some life forms "higher up" than others? Does it depend on what you did in your lifetime (how enlightened or good you were) as to which thing you reincarnate as? If so, I think it pretty pointless... if my current body is a reward, I wouldn't know, since I don't have any memory of my past life... or maybe my body is a punishment."

My reply : To life alone is punishment enough.

We are constantly bombarded with emotions and all sort of sensory overload, in such context, we are in hell.

As for creatures "lower" than us having soul etc and eating etc, it is what I consider as necessary evil.
Humanity still haven't reach a stage in evolution where he could go on living without consuming any organic compound as food other than water. We do consume other creatures that had souls in them by killing them off, but we are not consuming their souls, only their remains since humans cannot consume food in form of energy.

"Since it seems doubtful that I'd remember my previous life in my next life, there doesn't seem to be much reason to be good or become enlightened based purely on the rewards/punishments of the next life... the soul in the next life would somehow be "me" but they probably wouldn't know they're me, and neither would I... on the other hand, at least in the Christian afterlife people probably can remember who they were in the former life. "

My rely : And who are You? Are a product of years of commulated personality traits from the day you born till now or are you yourself? Who is you?

I don't not believe there is another me - I'm who I'm now, who I was before and who I will be in the future. I can die now and reborn as your son and we will still be having this same argument, simply because I believe my existence is based on my soul and not this "clothes" called a body which I'm wearing now.

About people who have "flat-lined"...

from Alcor Cryogenics:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Won't memories be lost if brain electrical activity stops?
Short-term memory depends on electrical activity. However long-term memory is based on durable changes within the brain. Quoting from the Textbook of Medical Physiology by Arthur C. Guyton (W.B. Saunders Company, Philadelphia, 1986), "We know that secondary memory does not depend on continued activity of the nervous system, because the brain can be TOTALLY INACTIVATED (emphasis added) by cooling, by general anesthesia, by hypoxia, by ischemia, or by any method and yet secondary memories that have been previously stored are still retained when the brain becomes active once again."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other words, I think RAM is a good analogy for STM (short-term memory) and the harddisk is a good analogy for LTM... like a harddisk, the data/information remains while the power is turned off. And when you reboot your computer or a patient their long-term memories are still there. I don't think this is a supernatural phenomenon. Do you still think that a harddisk is still a good analogy for what you think a soul or a mind is? And what happens when the person dies? Do their files get copied to a new-born computer (or life-form)? Then someone might revive the old body and the soul returns... perhaps the soul waits around a while before going to a new body just in case the old body can be revived... (though I don't believe in souls) "

My reply : Yes, I still believe that hard disk is a proper analog, despite of this long and short term memory. No matter short or long, you will still have to load it into a RAM before you could add, change or save your data.

In such context, Soul may contain your past life information, but it still takes a brain to bring it forth in form of memory glimpses. Only difference between a brain and a Mind is that the brain (long or short memory) prone to "wear and tear" and damages.

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Seraphim ]</p>

Liquidrage

I guess the little green men theory is just flying over your head. It's a shame too, as it fits the evidence.

And the proper analogue to a hard drive would be folds on the brain.

The proper analogue for the soul would be a device no one can detect and that in no way shape or form does anything while the computer is running, but once the computer is off this undectable device that no one made or purchased goes around collecting worldy data to put on the harddrive once the power has been turned back on.

Your little green men is a fiction, NDE and OBE is not a fiction as plenty of people who has no connection to each other had claimed to experienced it. If that is all you could come out with to counter my claims, I believe I'm wasting my time with you.

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

There is evidence that NDEs occur.
The little green men was a counter theory to the "soul" that you have been trying to prove.
You have not shown in any way shape or form how NDEs lead to a soul. Only that NDEs occur. I believe I'm wasting my time with you, but I was willing to at least give it a shot to show you where you have fallen short in your attempt. Was.

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Liquidrage ]</p>

excreationist

Seraphim:
Just wondering... what happens if someone has a NDE and meets up with a white blue-eyed man called Jesus who has longish brown hair and a beard? Does this mean that that Jesus looked like that? What if Jesus shows them heaven and seems to be in charge? Does that mean that Christianity is the correct religion?
What if they meet up with Mohammed(?) and Allah in the NDE? Would they be genuine NDE's? If so, what happened to their soul in those cases? Did it travel to another realm where the Christian God and Allah rule?

Yeah.

If my son doesn't have any memory of you then it is as if you have no part in his existence. On the other hand, I can remember past experiences in my life so they seem to be a real part of my life.

Can you access the memories in your soul? If so, what happened in all of your past lives? If not, what value does your soul have? I think that this body is required for us to be able to think and it is a medium in which to store information. (just like books and CD-ROM's can store information) In the future it might be possible to physically transfer the data from one person's brain to another's or into a computer but otherwise I think our personality/memories are limited to our current body...

Perhaps most of India is Hindu and believe in reincarnation... so many would probably claim to have memories of past lives every now and then. And some would seem to be right. Maybe it was a complete coincidence or maybe he or someone he knew knew the policeman died and they guessed the place he got shot. Did the boy remember the policeman's family tree, life history, etc? Or just a couple of details? It helps if evidence is thoroughly documented - e.g. if different reporters from reputable newspapers/magazines have interviewed the people, etc.

You must be talking about a different mind than the one that most people would know... if they saw someone gradually become unable to form basic sentences or recognize themselves or others, etc, they might say the old person is "losing their mind".

Why can't people with Alzheimers just access the relevant memories stored in their soul directly rather than be limited to those in their brain? I guess it just evolved that way... ? So do you think Karma, etc, evolved by chance and/or natural selection? Or did the cosmic consciousness think it up at the beginning of time or something?

Goliath

Seraphim,

Well, I suppose you are not required to respond to my post. However, it would do your argument good to remove some of the unproven assertions contained therein (or prove said assertions).

Out of curiousity: Why are you posting here at II?

Sincerely,

Goliath

Jamie_L

But that still doesn't address my point. No one has anyway of knowing if the NDE occurs during the period of brain death or just prior to it. An unconscious or semi-conscious person has no time reference. The entire NDE could take place prior to the brain dead condition. There is no way for anyone to verify otherwise.

In fact, the only verifiable data would indicate there is brain activity before the brain-dead condition, and none during. This is completely in keeping with the hypothesis that the supposed NDE occurs prior to the brain-dead condition. There is no evidence whatsoever to tie the NDE to the brain-dead state - except possibly for the testimony of the individual experiencing the NDE. And as I said, they have no way to say that with any authority.

Jamie

Philosoft

Seraphim, this is borderline preposterous. Naturalistic evolutionary theories explain this phenomenon so much better it's not even funny.
And, again, where is the evidence that the mind was needed to do something the brain couldn't?

<strong> *sigh*

You keep saying the mind does not lack for any functionality yet in the very next breath you claim the brain adds functionality! Please answer this question as simply as possible: Does the brain provide any functionality that the mind lacks?

<strong> Irrelevant. If the brain can add functionality, it is not necessarily true that the mind can exist independently.

<strong> What does the brain do to assuage these sensations?

Are you saying there is no physical difference between human and animal brains that could account for consciousness/sentience, etc? Have you read anything about the human brain in the last, oh say, 200 years?

<strong> Years ago, one of my psych professors claimed that there is only one allegedly human behavior that other animals have shown zero propensity toward. Take a guess? Surprise - belief in the supernatural.

gsx1138

You want to prove the existence of God, Heaven, Hell, and the Soul all of which (together) are Abrahamic beliefs. Yet your first argument for the soul is using a Buddhist teaching?
One of us is confused here. I know that I am so maybe it's both of us. How do buddhist teachings, which predate most of the Abrahamic thought, prove very much Abrahamic ideas?
As for NDE's, my own was very strange and has yet to be adequately explained. So from a personal experience I would say that more research needs to be done on the phenomina before anyone starts throwing around so called "facts".

Corgan Sow

Seraphim, answer me. You support Quantum Physics, yet it contradicted with your karma teachings. Quantum Physics indicated that when a matter gets enough energy, it will leaps into the next "stage" - ladder of energy level and continue "leaping" from one energy state to another till it runs out of energy.

Reincarnation is suppose to be ETERNAL until enlightenment.

Please clarify. No more teasings. i want answers.

Seraphim

"You have not shown in any way shape or form how NDEs lead to a soul. Only that NDEs occur. I believe I'm wasting my time with you, but I was willing to at least give it a shot to show you where you have fallen short in your attempt."
By Liquidrage

My reply : I really don't understand what you understood so far, I explain as best I could about energy and why I consider Soul is a form of energy by relating it to Quantum Physics, you do not show any sign whether you understood that part.

So what do you understand so far?

"What if they meet up with Mohammed(?) and Allah in the NDE? Would they be genuine NDE's? If so, what happened to their soul in those cases? Did it travel to another realm where the Christian God and Allah rule?"

My reply : So how you know there is someone named Jesus? History didn't state so, and there is no indication anywhere other than in Bible such person existed.

As for Muhammad and Muslims ... I don't believe in such person could even reach Nirwana (highest plain of existence). I'm a person who follow by examples, and so far, the example I seen from history and Muslims nowadays is enough to show me that I do not need to bother about this Islam or Muslim, come what may.

"Yeah."

My reply : So you are product of your own existence? Acceptable. If you lose your memory due to an accident or something, do your existence get erased as well?

"If my son doesn't have any memory of you then it is as if you have no part in his existence. On the other hand, I can remember past experiences in my life so they seem to be a real part of my life."

My reply : Yup, that should sum it up in a nutshells. But I have to warn you before hand, most of this pastlife memories are from painful experience such as death, the good one doesn't seems to register much (probably due to the nature of the memory itself).

"Can you access the memories in your soul? If so, what happened in all of your past lives? If not, what value does your soul have? I think that this body is required for us to be able to think and it is a medium in which to store information. (just like books and CD-ROM's can store information) In the future it might be possible to physically transfer the data from one person's brain to another's or into a computer but otherwise I think our personality/memories are limited to our current body..."

My reply : Can I access my past memories? Yes, but under special conditions such as when I'm mediating and when I practicing my martial arts (most common when I use a weapon such as a blade). Movements I never practise or seen before comes to me by reflects. The only reason I didn't mention this before is because providing oneself as evidence is insufficient in most discussions.

As for what is the use of this memories. I believe it is the way the Mind uses the Brain to it's benefits. By finding knowledge and skills, the Mind could bring more and more of this "tools" which could be inherited in the next life, where it could use to lead the new life into path of Nirwana.

In layman's term, the more information you gather, the better you are skilled in finding more in the future, till all this accumulated skills is enough for you to use to release yourself from circle of life and death.


"Perhaps most of India is Hindu and believe in reincarnation... so many would probably claim to have memories of past lives every now and then. And some would seem to be right. Maybe it was a complete coincidence or maybe he or someone he knew knew the policeman died and they guessed the place he got shot. Did the boy remember the policeman's family tree, life history, etc? Or just a couple of details? It helps if evidence is thoroughly documented - e.g. if different reporters from reputable newspapers/magazines have interviewed the people, etc."

My reply : India fast becoming another US clone (no offence to US people) and they are losing sight of their own culture.

And No, I don't know whether the boy remembered his past family, but I do believe he pointed out where he used to live ... hmmm ... maybe I can find some information on it on the Net and some Indian site. I will post if I find anything interesting.

As for reputable reporters covering such event, how many reputable reporters do you know from magazines such as Times etc willing to cover a story like that?

"You must be talking about a different mind than the one that most people would know... if they saw someone gradually become unable to form basic sentences or recognize themselves or others, etc, they might say the old person is "losing their mind".

My reply : The one most people know is the Brain, not the mind. Alzheimer is a sickness caused by degeneration of tissue inside the brain (at least that what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong here) and NOT the degeneration of the mind. Alzheimer patients losing control of their body functions, they are NOT growing MAD.

"Why can't people with Alzheimers just access the relevant memories stored in their soul directly rather than be limited to those in their brain? I guess it just evolved that way... ? So do you think Karma, etc, evolved by chance and/or natural selection? Or did the cosmic consciousness think it up at the beginning of time or something? "

My reply : Even so the Mind doesn't need the Brain, but the Brain is still the path to the Mind, which could be seen through their behavior and conduct. If the Brain begin to degenerate, that alone will cut one's path to the Mind.

As for Karma and whether it is by chance or natural selection, I believe it is by natural selection. There will be no use at all for Religion or God for that matter if it is by chance.

As mentioned by Darwin, the best survival tactics developed by a species in order to survive is imprinted in them (he believes it is in your genetic make-up, I believe it is in your Mind). In such context, Karma is part of natural selection - more like a race between the Brain and the Mind.

Out of curiousity: Why are you posting here at II?
by Goliath

My reply : Well, a "Dead" guy by the name of Lennon came to a forum where I was active and start Pissing everyone up, especially the Christians, I believe he is called Corgan Cow here. Due to our discussion in that forum, I end up here, so if you want to blame anyone, blame the cow.

"In fact, the only verifiable data would indicate there is brain activity before the brain-dead condition, and none during. This is completely in keeping with the hypothesis that the supposed NDE occurs prior to the brain-dead condition. There is no evidence whatsoever to tie the NDE to the brain-dead state - except possibly for the testimony of the individual experiencing the NDE. And as I said, they have no way to say that with any authority."
By Jamie_L

My reply : Acceptable partially, especially the part about brain wave activity before or during a NDE. But before I accept the whole statement, I wish to know what is the condition for a true brain-dead state? I considered the brain is offline after 7 minutes as my condition for a brain-dead state.

"Seraphim, this is borderline preposterous. Naturalistic evolutionary theories explain this phenomenon so much better it's not even funny.
And, again, where is the evidence that the mind was needed to do something the brain couldn't?"

My reply : NO, it is not. Creatures such as dinosaurs lived longer than Homo sapiens yet in such a short time, homo sapien's development is BEYOND ANYTHING ever appear on this world. Modern Homo Sapien appear some 1.3 Million years ago (according to theories such as Out-of Africa and Mitochondria Eve) and within that time to now, we managed to shape this world like no other creatures. Question : WHY? What we have that other creatures didn't have?

If the Naturalist evolutional theory did explain about evolution and all but it failed to explain why Mankind seems to go beyond the normal evolution.

Animals (with brains) usually stay in one area and migrate to and fro with the climate change. They DO NOT build things and they DO NOT use tools (unless you count monkeys and Chimps). They have brains too, why is ours different from their's?

"*sigh*

You keep saying the mind does not lack for any functionality yet in the very next breath you claim the brain adds functionality! Please answer this question as simply as possible: Does the brain provide any functionality that the mind lacks?"

My reply : I believe that is because of our understanding of the brain is different. I picture the brain and the Mind as seperate entities while you picture it as one. My context of the Mind is something exist inside the body in form of energy, while you think it is something emotional and physical. That is why we are seems to be contradicting each other.

"Irrelevant. If the brain can add functionality, it is not necessarily true that the mind can exist independently."

My reply : I don't see why the Mind could exist together with a Brain. In Buddhism, the role of the Mind is not as a chauffer to the Brain but to find a release from life and death, a role which the Mind couldn't possible do IF it kept dumped with emotions and attachment by the Brain.

"What does the brain do to assuage these sensations?"

My reply : Well, it takes anything that gives pleasure and at same time, avoid anything hurtful. If someone hurt you, you feel anger - that can be said as a contribution of the Brain to the Mind. From this anger, comes hatred and due to your own blindness of hatred, you will end up doing something really stupid and cause more suffering for you. BUT your hatred may not be satisfied here. One perfect example is Hitler (no offence to anyone).

"Are you saying there is no physical difference between human and animal brains that could account for consciousness/sentience, etc? Have you read anything about the human brain in the last, oh say, 200 years? "

My reply : I always watch Science programs such as Science Frontier. I don't remember hearing them say that there is creature who has similar brain-like organ as human.

"Years ago, one of my psych professors claimed that there is only one allegedly human behavior that other animals have shown zero propensity toward. Take a guess? Surprise - belief in the supernatural. "
By Philosoft

My reply : Animals don't believe in supernatural stuff?

"One of us is confused here. I know that I am so maybe it's both of us. How do buddhist teachings, which predate most of the Abrahamic thought, prove very much Abrahamic ideas?"
By gsx1138

My reply : You are not the only one confused here. Some guy named Jobar comes along and said that this thread should be here instead of in God's Existence column and transfered.