capsaicin67

[disclaimer:not to detract from the primary substance of this thread, which seems to me to be about what to do in the immediate present about encroachment of religion in the public schools in particular, in specific real-world instances. The relevance I hope is that I think the evolution toward development of a long-term strategy by "Separation and reason lovers" is essential to creating the type of climate that not only will make the really cool short-term strategies discussed here more effective, but in the near future said climate may be necessary to even still make it possible to employ such strategies with any leverage *at all*.]

Alonzo writes:I do not like the word 'spin' because, to me, it sounds like a practice of deception, but I sense that you did not mean this literally."

Alonzo,
Yes. You read my intent correctly. I was referring to that dynamic whereby media and message are so artfully employed that they are more likely to be heard, understood,remembered, embraced.

One of the things that I find so disconcerting is how the whole Pledge ruling issue has been nearly completely deformed into the message that the religious extremists want for their purposes. I mean,I know that dishonesty is nothing new to even the mainstream media-----but I see the issue being willfully twisted, nearly unanimously by the media. They are knowingly [at least sometimes I feel] putting a dishonest slant on the issue to promote their agenda. Maybe that is a better use of the term "spin", then...? And it is drowning out the truth.

I'm not sure what the best term is to describe it when we do it and it's being honest.....???


They [xians, religious extremists, fundies]are marketing a message so loudly and often through so many channels that it is becoming the truth. Newdow's case, is not being lost on the facts nor the legal merits and subsequent ruling: it is being lost in the court of public opinion and the media spinzone [of which O'Reilly is one of the greatest perpetrators, case in point-----he has co-opted the idea of "no-spin" and effectively made it the selling point of the biggest spin-zone around]. Sometimes its not enough to be correct, or most intellectually accurate. The marketing of any idea, especially the ones the public has very little understanding of, creates the truth----even if its not.

I think that the xian media marketeers are effectively and aggressively working to create the climate that will allow the seeds of each subsequent level of spin to take root. They own the words "atheist", "god", and the script about the founding and vision for this country now. Joe and Jane voter on the street have swallowed this spin, for the most part, and it is historical fact to them now. The religious extremists own chunks of the media where meaning is created, they have commercials on tv, books, mags, radio shows, filibustering celebrity bigmouths, tons of cash, whole tv channels, cartoons that tell children about the lives of blonde-haired, blue-eyed, Old Testament characters [just like the children at home!], music genres, large chunks of the gov't. and their own 2 polticial parties. The level of influence and impact this persistent and professional [mostly] campaign is having, IMO, is becoming extraordinary. We are whispering, they are shouting. And so loudly that unless we begin to build a "media p.a. system" to get our message out we won't be heard no matter how legally or factually righteous we are.

So maybe the battle has to be fought on 2 fronts to advance? At this stage I think that it will be to our own peril if we ignore that the battlefield may have changed significantly enough that we have to take our strategy to another level of sophistication/complexity. Our little, nutritious, "food-bearing plant", may simply get choked out by the media "weeds".

I would love to invite you to some sort of emerging project to address this! I am a corporate wageslave living in a zone that has all the vibrant culture and intellectualism of a mining asteroid----- my job is not connected to anything even remotely smacking of multimedia, marketing, etc. So, I guess, I'm just trying to fish around really and see if I'm the only one that sees the situation this way? And hopefully that beginning to talk about this stuff out loud will lead to some people that are involved in a relevant industry/sectors [the nontheist movement, multimedia, writing, film, documentaries, production, p.r., advertising, marketing, music, management etc]to eventually form such an entity and pursue it. And begin re-capturing the imaginations and hearts of the populace with the excitement and liberation found in a life of truthseeking, rather than denial -----which currently is the default choice for many people in the vacuum left by the decline in cultural relevance of the Enlightenment/Deism, UUism, and the freethought/humanist movements.

You give generally awesome comments/advice about short-term strategy, I think that it will be freaking awesomewhen people like you are doing the long-term strategy stuff,too, plus when that whole movement gets hooked-up with the people leaving high schools and colleges full of enthusiasm! That will rule! [yes, the prior rant is entirely meant in a complimentary fashion!]

And maybe if I get my butt back in grad school I can get into an area where I will be able to roll up my sleeves and do more than discuss it too!

[ July 28, 2002: Message edited by: capsaicin67 ]</p>

Alonzo Fyfe

I like it, too. And, to think, I just thought it up as I typed.


I think I probably will also have to put up the translation, and a very short history of it (suggestions?).

A short history would be useful, but will need its place. Few people will read it, but it should be made available to those who do care.

A web site would be good -- the sticker could identify a web site where one can go for more information.

Of translation options, we do not need a literal translation. What we want to do is present, clearly, the important concept behind the motto.

I would recommend a translation of:

"From many different people, one nation, indivisible."

I believe this would be most efficient because it accomplishes multiple objectives at once. It focuses on the core problem with the existing motto, plus it ties this issue in with the pledge issue and it shows how those who are advancing this issue are also seeking to defend one of the core values listed in the pledge of allegiance. This, then, means it is pro-American. And it is NOT anti-God or anti-Chrisitan. It does not attack anybody, except those people who would seek to divide the nation.

The size, and even the style, of this sticker should be equivalent to that being donated to the schools that says, "In God We Trust."

Everything else is good.

My next question: Is there anybody within eyeshot of this posting who has sufficient pull in a relevant nonprofit organization who can get this idea to them so they can have a few tens of thousands of these built before the start of the school year?

[ July 28, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

Alonzo Fyfe

Well, yes their strategy is. It appears to me as if their present objective is to generalize the sentiment launched against the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals decision to all relevant decisions. They are doing this by simply accepting the precedent of that decision, and telling people, "What do you expect from 40 years of bad decisions? If you want to eliminate this problem, you will need to go back to the source."

Ultimately, they think that the 9th Circuit Court opinion can be overturned, and they want it overturned in a way that will allow them to go back and change all of these previous decisions.

Alonzo Fyfe

I have given some thought to grand strategy as well. I have thought of posting those thoughts here, but in detail and length it simply would not work.

I will say that, at the top of the list, is to make this a part of the national debate:

*******

"Pledging allegiance to 'one nation under God' is the same as pledging allegiance to 'one nation, without atheists' and is as un-American as pledging to 'one nation, without Jews' or 'one nation, without blacks.'"

Of course, the first direct challenge would be, "That is not what it means?" So, the defense.

"What does it mean to pledge to one nation, indivisible? That's one nation, without division -- a unified country. What does it mean to pledge to one nation, with liberty and justice for all? It means, one nation without tyranny or injustice. So, what does it mean to pledge allegiance to one nation under God? It means pledging allegiance to one nation with no atheists.

"If you want to mention God in your pledge, there is a way to do so without saying, 'one nation, without atheists'. That is to say, "I pledge allegiance . . . one nation, indivisible . . . so help me God." The last part should be optional as it is in all other national oaths.

Now, you are affirming your own belief in God without saying that this should be "one country, without atheists."

********

I would advocate, as a part of any grand strategy, to spread this argument as far and as wide as possible, as quickly as possible, which is what I have been trying to do when I have not been spending my time here.

god-free-pen

Nikolai:

This is the answer I got from Delegate Robert G. (BoB) Marshall, Virginia House of Delegates 2002 in response to my letter, originally posted in this thread on July 26, 2002 at 9:57 AM.

He is the legislator responsible for the "In God We Trust" signs in your school.

[[Dear Katherine,

I read your comments. Perhaps, you like myself, might find interesting a book called Peace of Soul by the late Fulton Sheen.

Delegate Bob Marshall]]

god-free-pen

My reply to Delegate Robert (Bob) Marshall:

Dear Bob,

Thanks for your book suggestion. May I also suggest something you might like reading:

"FREEDOM UNDER SIEGE"

by Madalyn Murray O'Hair







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Oresta

I would think the meaning of the authors for pluribus was many colonies; i. e., out of many colonies, one nation.

However, I think the sticker idea is a terrific one. It has educational as well as activist potential. It could lead to an understanding of how our original national motto came into being and how it was usurped in the McCarthy era, when freedom of speech was suppressed in a climate of fear.

Nikolai

Has anyone heard of that book? Is that some be-chirstian-or-you-life-sux book?

Toto

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0892439157/internetinfidelsA" target="_blank">Peace of the Soul</a>

Samples from the reviews on Amazon:

"Mind you, souls and physics/origins of the universe great logic the 2 do not make! . . . This book is able to convey the importance of the belief in souls/spirituality w/o referencing biblical fiction which would cross realms of scientific culpability (ie turning to salt or creating the world in 6 days). . . " (4 out of 4 people found this helpful. }

"I find it quite interesting that the chapter of his where he compares psychology vs faith in the Healing Physician (ie Jesus Christ Himself) is very much the core of why people keep going to their shrinks when they might do better going to Holy Mass and meditating on where their souls are at the present time. "

GaryP

Wasn't Fulton Sheen the one who was on network TV back in the '50's? I think he wore his vestments with the cute little red hat and all.

His show was pretty successful I think. I was pretty young so I may be all wet.