Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dr Rick · 02-25-2002, 02:56 PM

Skeptical look at:
<a href="http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html" target="_blank">acupuncture</a>

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

Corwin · 02-25-2002, 03:01 PM

Acupuncture and Chiropracty are both relatively effective, when viewed rationally.

A chiropracter that isn't a quack will tell you 'Ok, you torqued out your back. Now... you can go under the knife, or I can pop things back into place.' Good ones are people who know the structure of the spine and how to reestablish that structure. The quacks are the ones that claim to be able to cure just about anything by wrenching your back.

Likewise... acupuncture seems to work, in some areas such as chronic pain. There's some study being done as to why... but for some odd reason it works. Again, it won't cure everything.... but for what it works for it works very well.

Corwin · 02-25-2002, 03:13 PM

Oops.

Let me add....

A good chiropracter will take one look at you and say 'oops.... you tore a disc. I can't fix that.... you'll need surgery.'

Likewise a good acupuncturist will take one look at you and say 'well... you have chronic rheumatoid arthritis.... I can do something about the pain, but if you really want to get rid of this you should see an MD for some anti-inflammatory medications.'

It's all a question of knowing your limits. (In my opinion, a good doctor should also be able to say 'Well... you have rheumatoid arthritis... badly. I can give you anti-inflammatory drugs... but I'd suggest an accupuncturist for the pain... the only thing I can do for it will end up with you being addicted to morphine...')

Francois Tremblay · 02-25-2002, 05:07 PM

Corwin, what CAN an acupuncturist or chiropractor solve that real medecine can't ?

Corwin · 02-25-2002, 07:28 PM

It isn't that 'real medicine' can't fix it... it's that acupuncture and chiro can frequently do the same job, cheaper and with fewer side effects.

For serious injuries.... doctor and drugs. For 'I wrenched my back...' frequently these alternatives are simpler, just as effective or more so, and cheaper.

Viti · 02-25-2002, 09:02 PM

Franc28 I can site extensive research supporting both sides. The only tie breaker is anecdotal...you sound as if you have a bone to pick. If you dislocated your shoulder, would you just take pain medicine or put the shoulder back in place? So if your spine is out of place why not put it back in alignment?

I certainly think research should be ongoing for all medicine. My goodness, where would we be if nobody had noticed that cheese mold killed bacteria, that willow bark eased pain, that horse urine could be used to replace lost hormones in menopausal women, etc. etc. Don't you even think there is a possibility that some forms of alternative medicine may actually have a basis?

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

tronvillain · 02-25-2002, 10:39 PM

Well, you might be able to cite supporting chiropractic in a limited sense, but certainly not to the extent that many of its practioners claim.

Quote:

If you dislocated your shoulder, would you just take pain medicine or put the shoulder back in place? So if your spine is out of place why not put it back in alignment?

This assumes that the spine is out of place.

Viti · 02-25-2002, 11:05 PM

I agree that many practitioners of alternative medicine make claims beyond their capabilities. The studies I would cite for chiropractic are for back pain, neck pain, and a growing body of research showing effectiveness in treating tension headaches.

Quote:

. CONCLUSIONS: SMT (spinal manipulative therapy) appears to have a better effect than massage for cervicogenic headache. It also appears that SMT has an effect comparable to commonly used first-line prophylactic prescription medications for tension-type headache and migraine headache **Efficacy of spinal manipulation for chronic headache: a systematic review.
J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2001

[

I did find a National Institutes of Health consensus report on the effectiveness of acupuncture. I do not know if the other posters here would consider the NIH authoritative or not but here is a summary

Quote:

According to an NIH consensus panel of scientists, researchers, and practitioners who convened in November 1997, clinical studies have shown that acupuncture is an effective treatment for nausea caused by surgical anesthesia and cancer chemotherapy as well as for dental pain experienced after surgery. The panel also found that acupuncture is useful by itself or combined with conventional therapies to treat addiction, headaches, menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain, osteoarthritis, lower back pain, carpal tunnel syndrome, and asthma; and to assist in stroke rehabilitation **National Institutes of Health Consensus Panel. Acupuncture. National Institutes of Health Consensus Development Statement (Bethesda, MD, November 3-5, 1997). Sponsors: Office of Alternative Medicine and Office of Medical Applications of Research. Bethesda, MD: National Institutes of Health, 1997

The World Health Organization lists more than 40 conditions for which they consider acupuncture appropriate including

Headaches
Migraines
Neurogenic bladder
dysfunction
Parkinson's disease
Postoperative pain
Stroke

**World Health Organization, United Nations. "Viewpoint on Acupuncture." 1979

Pandora · 02-25-2002, 11:51 PM

I have used acupuncture for the last ten years.

My father is a very orthodox doctor, and complete skeptic, who has no time for aroma therapists and other forms of quackery. However, the UK government makes all GP’s attend a course each year. He saw one on acupuncture and thought it would be fun.

At the time I had been suffering with a shoulder injury for three years and I was taking codeine tablets like smarties. He came back from the course and asked if I wanted to be guinea pig. I was completely skeptical and unconvinced, but the results were amazing – the day after for the first time in three years I had no pain. I had another three sessions at six month intervals and have had no more problems.

My father has done a lot more courses and now uses acupuncture on a daily basis in his surgeries (it’s also free) in combination with more orthodox methods. He reckons to have a 70% success rate – which is better than that for a new drug. Obviously, it’s not going to cure your heart problems or your tumour – but it’s not bad on muscular and skeletal problems.

One thing though – it hurts like anything – I have to be in dire pain to have it done.

tronvillain · 02-26-2002, 12:00 AM

I think it would get a little more credit if it didn't have the attached mythology.

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02-25-2002, 02:56 PM	#11
Dr Rick Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,393	Skeptical look at: <a href="http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html" target="_blank">acupuncture</a> [ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

02-25-2002, 03:01 PM	#12
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Acupuncture and Chiropracty are both relatively effective, when viewed rationally. A chiropracter that isn't a quack will tell you 'Ok, you torqued out your back. Now... you can go under the knife, or I can pop things back into place.' Good ones are people who know the structure of the spine and how to reestablish that structure. The quacks are the ones that claim to be able to cure just about anything by wrenching your back. Likewise... acupuncture seems to work, in some areas such as chronic pain. There's some study being done as to why... but for some odd reason it works. Again, it won't cure everything.... but for what it works for it works very well.

02-25-2002, 03:13 PM	#13
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Oops. Let me add.... A good chiropracter will take one look at you and say 'oops.... you tore a disc. I can't fix that.... you'll need surgery.' Likewise a good acupuncturist will take one look at you and say 'well... you have chronic rheumatoid arthritis.... I can do something about the pain, but if you really want to get rid of this you should see an MD for some anti-inflammatory medications.' It's all a question of knowing your limits. (In my opinion, a good doctor should also be able to say 'Well... you have rheumatoid arthritis... badly. I can give you anti-inflammatory drugs... but I'd suggest an accupuncturist for the pain... the only thing I can do for it will end up with you being addicted to morphine...')

02-25-2002, 05:07 PM	#14
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	Corwin, what CAN an acupuncturist or chiropractor solve that real medecine can't ?

02-25-2002, 07:28 PM	#15
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	It isn't that 'real medicine' can't fix it... it's that acupuncture and chiro can frequently do the same job, cheaper and with fewer side effects. For serious injuries.... doctor and drugs. For 'I wrenched my back...' frequently these alternatives are simpler, just as effective or more so, and cheaper.

02-25-2002, 09:02 PM	#16
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Franc28 I can site extensive research supporting both sides. The only tie breaker is anecdotal...you sound as if you have a bone to pick. If you dislocated your shoulder, would you just take pain medicine or put the shoulder back in place? So if your spine is out of place why not put it back in alignment? I certainly think research should be ongoing for all medicine. My goodness, where would we be if nobody had noticed that cheese mold killed bacteria, that willow bark eased pain, that horse urine could be used to replace lost hormones in menopausal women, etc. etc. Don't you even think there is a possibility that some forms of alternative medicine may actually have a basis? [ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

02-25-2002, 11:51 PM	#19
Pandora Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: UK Posts: 367	I have used acupuncture for the last ten years. My father is a very orthodox doctor, and complete skeptic, who has no time for aroma therapists and other forms of quackery. However, the UK government makes all GP’s attend a course each year. He saw one on acupuncture and thought it would be fun. At the time I had been suffering with a shoulder injury for three years and I was taking codeine tablets like smarties. He came back from the course and asked if I wanted to be guinea pig. I was completely skeptical and unconvinced, but the results were amazing – the day after for the first time in three years I had no pain. I had another three sessions at six month intervals and have had no more problems. My father has done a lot more courses and now uses acupuncture on a daily basis in his surgeries (it’s also free) in combination with more orthodox methods. He reckons to have a 70% success rate – which is better than that for a new drug. Obviously, it’s not going to cure your heart problems or your tumour – but it’s not bad on muscular and skeletal problems. One thing though – it hurts like anything – I have to be in dire pain to have it done.

02-26-2002, 12:00 AM	#20
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	I think it would get a little more credit if it didn't have the attached mythology.

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