Volker.Doormann

I have posted here in BC&H to the subject. One hint. SP has not argued on the subject, but on the person. You have repeated this doing. You are on my ignore list.

Doctor X

Apparently, much to my regret, Volker confirms my suspicion that he is edited by moderator.

--J.D.

Soul Invictus

Come on now Doctor....You and Volker cool out. I don't want anyone getting banned because I value both of your opinions here!

Doctor X

edited by moderator

Peter Kirby

[MODERATOR]
I greatly value the contributions of Doctor X. With the advisement of other moderators, I have deleted the statements made above, whether true or not, in accordance with the Forum Rules:

"The Secular Web discussion forum strives to be an intellectually stimulating environment in which discussants exchange ideas in the spirit of discovery. Poisoning that environment with acrimony is highly discouraged. Please exercise tact and refrain from insulting others or disrupting ongoing discussions with inflammatory speech."

"You will not post material that is knowingly defamatory . . . abusive . . ."

"You agree that if any of these rules are abused, the offending message may be removed without prior notice . . ."

That is all. Maybe we can get back to "what Jesus really said."
[/MODERATOR]

best,
Peter Kirby

Bernard Muller

I did establish, or at least made a lot of powerful arguments, that "Mark" invented the genre of 'parables by Jesus'. All that from evidence from the gospel.
I also examined every parables in GMark, one by one. I did not treat of the subject lightly, because it is highly controversial and might put me in a minority of one, among any HJ'ers. I addressed the issue front & center on that page:
parables from Mark
On the next page, I examined all the Q parables, plus some Lukan & Matthean.

All the synoptic gospelers admit the parables, unexplained to Jesus' audience (except at times to disciples), were not meant for them, not fully understood by them and of no redeeming value for them. However they makes a lot of sense for later Christians, as I explained on my pages, many of those as disguised prophecies about future "tribulations" or dealing with issues within the Christian flocks.

In that page, I took great pain to explain the status of Jesus, that is poor & uneducated.
Jesus' origin
Even the poor thing is substantiated by Paul (2Cor8:9)!

All gospelers knew that. The synoptics ones have the Holy Spirit getting upon Jesus, after the baptism, to explain Jesus' smarts (& his knowledge of the LXX!). And from an unlikely source, "John" has his superlative incarnated WORD assessed by Jews as:
Jn5:15 Darby "The Jews therefore wondered, saying, How knows this [man] letters, having never learned?"
And the people around him, including his main disciples, the 4 fishermen, were, in view of their social standings, illiterate. "Luke" seemed to have known about it:
Ac4:13 13 Darby "But seeing the boldness of Peter and John, and perceiving that they were unlettered and uninstructed men, they wondered;"
Would an educated sage hang on with illiterates as his main associates? Even today, members of Academia have a deemed view of outsiders, even if those later ones are educated.
So, Peter, I am not dealing with circular arguments here, I am dealing with false assumption through the evidence, in order not to get on the wrong path, even if that path is well travelled (to nowhere!) and is attractive to intellectuals (& scholars) who love to see HJ as a great intellectual (& scholar).

Best regards, Bernard

Bernard Muller

Ya, you are right.
But I meant to say 'parables of (allegedly) Jesus'.
Sorry, my mistake
Best regards, Bernard

Doctor X

Peter:

When someone behaves dishonestly and cowardly, he has only himself to blame for this recognition. Such behavior is the antithesis of free thinking and, I would hope, a forum such as this. Defamation is when someone makes charges against a character that are not true.

When they are true it is unfortunate.

Such a person could always disinter his head from the sands on the banks of the River Denial and confront evidence that challenges his preconceived notions. That would, of course, require courage and honesty; however, should it happen it would represent maturity.

--J.D.

Bernard Muller

Hellenistic literature: But if HJ, as an Aramaic speaking uneducated Jew of Palestine was not part of this Hellenistic culture, that would not affect him. But the gospelers, starting by "Mark", were in that Hellenistic literature. They wrote in Greek, didn't they?
However I am not saying some kind of parabole did not exist in Jewish culture before Jesus, because they did also.
So there is no conclusion to be drawn here.
But 'parable a la Jesus' could have started from a Hellenistic milieu, like Mark's. Certainly the Hellenistic culture was not preventing it.
And, because of "unexplained" and obscure (even the disciples are said not to understand them!), they look like oracles requiring interpretation, certainly very Greekish.

Assumption, assumption, assumption. Where is the evidence?
How do you know Q & GThomas preceded GMark?
Where are the arguments? It is just brainwashing from the people of the scholarly Jesus.

Luke 13:18-20 appears to me to be a rewriting of the parable of the mustard seed from GMark. I'll explain later.
Written before? How do you explain a big tree coming from a mustard seed?
"Mark" had it right: a large plant, not a tree, comes from a mustard seed. And "Mark" made a point that from the smallest known seed, something big (but a plant, not a tree) can grow.
The Q version is corrupted from GMark with a tree in it because it is more likely to provide shelter for the birds than a plant. But try to have a tree growing from a mustard seed!
In other words, if the Q parable been written before GMark, there was no reason whatsoever for the Q people to use a **mustard** seed (generating a tree!). A tree seed, or just a seed would have been enough & not ridiculous (as a mustard seed) and the meaning of the parable not affected.
Conclusion: the GMark parable comes first, the Q version comes next.

As far as GTh20 is concerned, it is a beautiful example of a rewriting of the GMark version of the parable, more smooth, more concise, more to the point. I quote GMark first:

Mk4:30-32 Darby "And he said, How should we liken the kingdom of God, or with what comparison should we compare it?
As to a grain of mustard [seed], which, when it is sown upon the earth, is less than all seeds which are upon the earth,
and when it has been sown, mounts up and becomes greater than all herbs, and produces great branches, so that the birds of heaven can roost under its shadow."

Let's see about GThomas now:
GTh20 "The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us what the Kingdom of
Heaven is like."
He said to them, "It is like a mustard seed, the smallest of
all seeds. But when it falls on tilled soil, it produces a great
plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky."

For reference, the Q version:
Lk13:18-19 Darby "And he said, To what is the kingdom of God like? and to what shall I liken it?
It is like a grain of mustard [seed] which a man took and cast into his garden; and it grew and became a great tree, and the birds of heaven lodged in its branches."

Best regards, Bernard

Doctor X

Now . . . back to the topic. . . .

Bernard:

Do you feel that Mk created some of the parables himself or did he base all of them on previous material. I understand that it is a loaded question . . . if I want to believe "such-and-such" was said by Junior I can create--perhaps out of whole cloth--a "proto" source for Mk which may or may not have existed.

For what it is worth, I think the parables demonstrate something about the audience of Mk--they would appreciate them. I also think they serve as a way of denegrating the hapless disciples--who cannot figure out a "loaves 'n fishies" miracle when it is repeated! In that way, there is a literary reason for them which argues that Mk actually made some of them up. However, when you have some similarity between Mk, a G of T, and a Q, it does make me wonder if a Mk had a source for some of them.

Anyways, any thoughts on that?

--J.D.