Freethought & Rationalism Archive

99Percent · 09-18-2002, 08:00 AM

Very few disagree that parent-child sex is immoral, or if incest involving rape is immoral.

But what about consensual incest involving adults only with no offspring? How could it be objectively immoral, if at all?

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: 99Percent ]

Tom Sawyer · 09-18-2002, 10:54 AM

I'm against incest if they're going to have children. Apart from the fact that genetic diversity strengthens the gene pool, a kid is going to have a lot of psychological problems if he grows up with a brother and sister as his parents. It's a cruel thing to do to a child and should not be done under any circumstances.

If, however, two consenting adults just want to have sex with each other in the privacy of their own homes, I don't care about it and it's not the business of the government to intrude upon it. I personally find incest repugnant, but it's their lives and as long as they're both consenting and no children are brought into the mix, it's really nobody's business than theirs.

Philosoft · 09-18-2002, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by peteyh:
I'm against incest if they're going to have children.

Agreed.

Quote:

Apart from the fact that genetic diversity strengthens the gene pool, a kid is going to have a lot of psychological problems if he grows up with a brother and sister as his parents.

I don't understand how you conclude this. What is the rationale that brother-sister mating will ensure non-genetic psychological dysfunction in the offspring?

echidna · 09-18-2002, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 99Percent:
[QB]Very few disagree that parent-child sex is immoral, or if incest involving rape is immoral.

But what about consensual incest involving adults only with no offspring? How could it be objectively immoral, if at all?

99, I don�t even see how consensual adult incest even with offspring, is immoral. Yes, there is a congenital risk of birth defects, but by the same reasoning, the following are also objectively immoral :

* Parenting with known predisposition towards genetic defects
* Mothering over 25
* Mothering while drinking alcohol or smoking

I can�t class these as immoral, risky maybe, even to the extent of negligent on occasion, but not immoral.

Personally I�d place it in my �ewwww� category rather than my �lock-em-up� category.

tronvillain · 09-18-2002, 08:21 PM

Humans have evolved so that we tend to not be attracted to those who were around us during childhood, and so we tend to find incest disturbing. Still, other than issues of child abuse and consent, incest does not bother me all that much. I see no reason to forcibly prevent consenting adults from engaging in it.

echidna · 09-18-2002, 08:51 PM

Interestingly the Bible seems a little ambiguous as well. Multiple occurrences without any apparent negative consequences and simultaneous condemnation as well. From <a href="http://www.darkhistory.com/bible.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.darkhistory.com/bible.shtml</a>

Quote:

Other Cases of Incest
2Sarah: Half-sister of husband, Abra-ham. "She really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife." (Gen 20:12) NIV

3Micah: Sister of Lot, married their un-cle, Nahor. "The name of Nahor's wife was Milcah; she was the daughter of Haran, the father of both Milcah and Iscah." (Gen 11:29) NIV

4Bathlot-1: The names of Lots daugh-ters are not recorded in the bible. Both had sexual relations with Lot, "so both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father." (Gen 19:36) NIV

5Isaac: Abraham's son married his own second cousin, Rebekah. "Some time later Abraham was told, 'Milcah is also a mother; she has borne sons to your brother Nahor: Uz the firstborn, Buz his brother, Kemuel (the father of Aram), Kesed, Hazo, Pildash, Jidlaph and Be-thuel.' Bethuel became the father of Rebekah." (Gen 22:20-23) NIV

6Esau: Married two of his first cousins (sisters, daughters of his father's brother. "And Esau went to Ishmael and married Mahalath, the sister of Nebaioth and daughter of Ishmael son of Abra-ham, in addition to the wives he already had. (Gen 28:9) NIV

"Esau took his wives from the women of Canaan: Adah daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Oholibamah daughter of Anah and granddaughter of Zibeon the Hivite-- also Basemath daughter of Ishmael and sister of Nebaioth." (Gen 36:2-3) NIV

7Jacob: Married two of his first cousins, daughters of his mother's brother. "Now Laban had two daughters; the name of the older was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel� he took his daughter Leah and gave her to Jacob, and Jacob lay with her� Jacob lay with Rachel also" (Gen 29:16-30) NIV

8Perez: The twin brother of Zerah, they are the offspring of Judah and his son's wife Tamar. "When Tamar was told, 'Your father-in-law is on his way to Timnah to shear his sheep,' she took off her widow's clothes, covered herself with a veil to disguise herself� When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had covered her face. Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to her by the road-side and said, 'Come now, let me sleep with you.'� When the time came for her to give birth, there were twin boys in her womb. (Gen 38:13-27) NIV

9Amran: The father of Moses, he mar-ried his own aunt. "Amram married his father's sister Jochebed, who bore him Aaron and Moses." (Exod 6:20) NIV

10Concubines: The bible records that David had eight wives who bore him 19 sons as well as an unnamed number of sons by his concubines. "These were the sons of David born to him in He-bron: The firstborn was Amnon the son of Ahinoam of Jezreel; the second, Daniel the son of Abigail of Carmel; the third, Absalom the son of Maacah daughter of Talmai king of Geshur; the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith; the fifth, Shephatiah the son of Abital; and the sixth, Ithream, by his wife Eglah. These six were born to David in He-bron, where he reigned seven years and six months. David reigned in Jerusalem thirty-three years, and these were the children born to him there: Shammua, Shobab, Nathan and Solomon. These four were by Bathsheba daughter of Ammiel. There were also Ibhar, El-ishua, Eliphelet, Nogah, Nepheg, Ja-phia, Elishama, Eliada and Eliphelet-- nine in all. All these were the sons of David, besides his sons by his concu-bines." (1 Chron 3:1-9) NIV

11Michal: Originally betrothed to David, she was later wed to Paltiel until David kidnapped her. "David said: 'I will make an agreement with you. But I demand one thing of you: Do not come into my presence unless you bring Michal daughter of Saul when you come to see me.' Then David sent mes-sengers to Ish-Bosheth son of Saul, de-manding, 'Give me my wife Michal, whom I betrothed to myself for the price of a hundred Philistine foreskins.' So Ish-Bosheth gave orders and had her taken away from her husband Paltiel" (2 Sam 3:13-15) NIV

12Bathsheba: Conceived her first son by David while still married to Uriah. "The man said, 'Isn't this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?' Then David sent messen-gers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her." (2 Sam 11:3-4) NIV

13Jesus: The gosepels record two differ-ent lineages for Jesus. "he was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli�" (Luke 3:23) NIV "�Jacob the father of Joseph, the hus-band of Mary, of whom was born Jesus" (Matt 1:16) NIV

Passages Condemning Incest:
Lev 18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness.

Lev 18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

Lev 18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

Lev 18:9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Lev 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

Lev 20:17 And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

Lev 20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

Deu 27:22 Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.

The Duality:
The duality of the Bible regarding incest is quite perplexing. According to the Bible, incest started life on earth and populated the entire planet. After the great flood, only 8 people survived, so incest had to have been practiced to populate the world once more.

Yet, later in the Bible, the LORD speaks to Moses and commands that incest be punished by death. It seems that at one point, incest relations were common place until a focal point in history when it was condemned. And to this day it is still considered an abomination.

Vorkosigan · 09-18-2002, 11:58 PM

Incest aversion is definitely innate. See Human Universals by Don Brown. Studies of kibbutzim in Israel, for example, show that intermarriage among Kibbutzim who grew up together are rare.

Michael

Amen-Moses · 09-19-2002, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan:
Incest aversion is definitely innate. See Human Universals by Don Brown. Studies of kibbutzim in Israel, for example, show that intermarriage among Kibbutzim who grew up together are rare.

It is innate in almost all mammals, in fact this is the main reason why it is so difficult to breed many animals in captivity as even if they are unrelated they won't normally mate if they grew up together.

Amen-Moses

Infinity Lover · 09-19-2002, 03:08 AM

I think that, in general, the overal position on a specific topic within a society influences the way an individual within that society deals with that topic, or finding themselves in a situation where they become that topic.

Translating that to the topic of incest; the way we are disgusted by incest can place a victim of incest in social isolation. Carying around a damaging skeleton in the closet.
Off course it's a good thing to condemn incest, I condemn it, but I also think we should be carefull about the the way we express that condemnation (that a proper word?), considering it's such an emotionally charged topic.

(on this thread as well; you never know who'll end up reading it.)

Marcel.

raistlinjones · 09-21-2002, 11:49 AM

Why would genetic diversity have any bearing on this issue? Is it really our responsibility to maximize diversity?

I mean, if this were really the case, I should be expected to stay away from any other blond haired, blue eyed, english descendants - that is, I should probably be mating only with those of dark skin, or of far away lands. That seems ridiculous to me, as does any implication that I'm morally responsible for ensuring gentetic diversity.

09-18-2002, 08:00 AM	#11
99Percent Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: my mind Posts: 5,996	Very few disagree that parent-child sex is immoral, or if incest involving rape is immoral. But what about consensual incest involving adults only with no offspring? How could it be objectively immoral, if at all? [ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: 99Percent ]</p>

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09-18-2002, 10:54 AM	#12
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	I'm against incest if they're going to have children. Apart from the fact that genetic diversity strengthens the gene pool, a kid is going to have a lot of psychological problems if he grows up with a brother and sister as his parents. It's a cruel thing to do to a child and should not be done under any circumstances. If, however, two consenting adults just want to have sex with each other in the privacy of their own homes, I don't care about it and it's not the business of the government to intrude upon it. I personally find incest repugnant, but it's their lives and as long as they're both consenting and no children are brought into the mix, it's really nobody's business than theirs.

09-18-2002, 08:21 PM	#15
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Humans have evolved so that we tend to not be attracted to those who were around us during childhood, and so we tend to find incest disturbing. Still, other than issues of child abuse and consent, incest does not bother me all that much. I see no reason to forcibly prevent consenting adults from engaging in it.

09-18-2002, 11:58 PM	#17
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Incest aversion is definitely innate. See Human Universals by Don Brown. Studies of kibbutzim in Israel, for example, show that intermarriage among Kibbutzim who grew up together are rare. Michael

09-19-2002, 03:08 AM	#19
Infinity Lover Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,047	I think that, in general, the overal position on a specific topic within a society influences the way an individual within that society deals with that topic, or finding themselves in a situation where they become that topic. Translating that to the topic of incest; the way we are disgusted by incest can place a victim of incest in social isolation. Carying around a damaging skeleton in the closet. Off course it's a good thing to condemn incest, I condemn it, but I also think we should be carefull about the the way we express that condemnation (that a proper word?), considering it's such an emotionally charged topic. (on this thread as well; you never know who'll end up reading it.) Marcel.

09-21-2002, 11:49 AM	#20
raistlinjones Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Mount Pleasant, MI Posts: 34	Why would genetic diversity have any bearing on this issue? Is it really our responsibility to maximize diversity? I mean, if this were really the case, I should be expected to stay away from any other blond haired, blue eyed, english descendants - that is, I should probably be mating only with those of dark skin, or of far away lands. That seems ridiculous to me, as does any implication that I'm morally responsible for ensuring gentetic diversity.

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