Freethought & Rationalism Archive

leonarde · 10-17-2002, 10:17 PM

Posted by Ion:

Quote:

It shows to any reader a struggle in your way of debating, right?

No, it shows that I was engaged with one VERY confused interlocutor.

Cheers!

Baidarka · 10-18-2002, 03:59 AM

I would like to point out that the themes of the 2 versions of the story are also contradictory.
In Matthew’s version Judas is remorseful. It is his feeling of remorse which leads him to give back the money and hang himself.
In Acts a wicked, remorseless Judas buys land with his ill gotten gains and it is God who punishes him with a horrible and supernatural death.
Not only are the harmonists playing loose with logic but they are destroying the literary intentions of the gospel writers.
Matthew: Remorseful- Suicide
Acts: Remorseless-Death by the hand of God. Harmonize that!

Butters · 10-18-2002, 05:08 AM

Posted by Leonarde,
"4) A person is an "apologist"; what such
a person engages in is "apologetics", not "apologitics" as Butters had it (his second misspelling in his first VERY short sentence)."

The last gasp of a man with no defense for his position, criticize spelling and grammer!
I plead guilty to never using a spell check.
I also plead guilty to ignoring strict rules of grammer and form.
I also never criticize others for their spelling and grammer errors, I would rather address their actual arguments.

So since I am so slow, mabye you could explain to me EXACTLY what "wide recognition" means.

I can't speak for Ion, but I would like to see your historical evidence for Jesus (the man).
I Will not accept the references by Josephus, as at least in part they are forgeries, which even most Christian scholars will admit to.

leonarde · 10-18-2002, 05:24 AM

Posted by Butters:

Quote:

So since I am so slow, mabye[sic] you could explain to me EXACTLY what "wide recognition" means.

No, thanks! Been there, done that. If YOU want to
start another thread about OTHER things then do
so; this thread is spent.

Cheers!

Ion · 10-18-2002, 07:31 AM

Leonarde,
I bring this up -which you posted October 11-, for the third time now:

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:


There are plenty of historical persons whose death
we know little or nothing about (or whose death
is reported in various, apparently contradictory
ways). Yet they remain historical persons.

To me the only important things about Judas
are:
1)his one-time status as an apostle.

2)his turning against Jesus.

On the above two points the 4 canonical Gospels,
The Acts of the Apostles etc. are unanimous.
If he had been run over by a speeding charioteer
it wouldn't matter at all to me...

Cheers!

It shows:
"...To me the only important things about Judas
are:
1)his one-time status as an apostle.

2)his turning against Jesus.
..."
Again, I am asking, when were these points 1) and 2) established as being historical facts?

Lots of people in this thread see this question.
Consider this, which I posted October 16, related to my question:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:

…
Show me one history book with Jesus existence and miracles recognized in it, not a religious book.

I think you are confusing religion with history.

It did bring this reply October 16, by Bumble Bee Tuna:

Quote:

Originally posted by Bumble Bee Tuna:
I also echo the request for a single non-religious book that comes forth with any historical evidence for a miraculous Jesus.
...
-B

To me it seems that you are an apologist, practicing apologetics, and the issue of historical proofs for Jesus and Judas, then of contradictory Biblical accounts about Judas death, gets muddled in your posts with your religious faith.

This debate is supposed to be an exercize in logic which I do, not an exercize in religious faith and apologetics which you do.

[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Ion ]

Bumble Bee Tuna · 10-19-2002, 02:41 PM

Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm just wondering what the deal is with 1 Corinthians 15:3-5...

Quote:

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

Now I'm no Biblical scholar and I'm only going off of a website. But it appears that this passage ignores Judas' suicide and says Jesus appeared to him along with the other disciples. Or at least that's what the website said, but I'm not inclined to believe it until someone with more knowledge on the stuff agrees.

Assuming it is true, though, what is the apologetic for this? That Judas waited over 3 days to commit suicide? But then what was he doing hanging out with the other disciples, seeing as he was the betrayer? Wouldn't they kind of, well, not like him for that?

-B

Mageth · 10-19-2002, 03:19 PM

Good questions. And if Judas was with "the twelve", why did he not "believe" upon seeing the resurrected Christ, repent, and be redeemed? (or maybe he was...but then why would he kill himself?)

Baidarka · 10-20-2002, 08:37 AM

The passage that Bumble Bee Tuna points out implies,
THAT IF ALL 12 DISCPLES WITNESSED THE RESURRECTION THEN THE MYTH OF JUDAS THE TRAITOR IS A LATE ADDITION TO THE STORY.
It seems that this could be a pre-Judas as evil passage. This supports Hyam Maccaby’s contention that the Judas myth came out of the early Church’s rift with Judaism.
So we can now introduce a third major contradictory thread, that the evil Judas traitor was a late unhistorical addition to the Christ myth which helps to explain why Luke and Mathew contradict each other. In other words since the story of Judas the traitor was a developing myth it was easy for the 2 competing writers to come up with different versions of the story.

Uzzah · 10-20-2002, 08:53 AM

I would also like to point out that Paul *never* refers to Judas. even when he has *ample* reason to do so.

The perfect example is Hebrews 12:15-17

Quote:

See to it that there is no one among you who forfeits the grace of God, no bitter, noxious weed to poison the whole, no immoral person, no one worldly-minded like Esau. He sold his birthright for a single meal, and you know that although he wanted afterwards to claim the blessing, he was rejected.

I'll let Earl Doherty's comment speak for me.

Quote:

Dante in his Inferno places Judas in the pit of Hell, locked in ice, gnawed on by Satan. The arch-betrayer who planted his deceitful kiss on Jesus� cheek and helped deliver him to death was to become a symbol in Christian minds of all falsehearted and disbelieving Jewry. Judas inaugurated the Jew as demon, and an entire race suffered fiercely for it over two millennia. Yet before he appears to fill his treacherous role in Mark�s Passion story, no ghost of Judas haunts the Christian landscape. He is notably missing from the above passage in Hebrews, where the selling of the Lord himself for 30 pieces of silver by a man embittered, jealous and deceitful, would surely have been a more apt symbol of the bitter, poisonous weed that arises unchecked within the community of the holy.

<a href="http://human.st/jesuspuzzle/siltop20.htm" target="_blank">http://human.st/jesuspuzzle/siltop20.htm</a>

Uzzah

Bumble Bee Tuna · 10-29-2002, 08:37 AM

This really deserves a bump...

Seeing as we were finally making progress, and then the opposition just disappeared. I know this is typical of them but I for one don't intend to just let it fade away.

To the Christians: Please respond to the latest issues:

1. Respond to the quote I just posted about Jesus appearing to "the twelve". I'm not a Biblical scholar and would like to see if that conclusion I mentioned is at all reasonable.

2. Tell us WHY a writer would leave out key details. Why would a writer write about an already-dead corpse exploding, and not about the actual hanging that killed it?

3. A summary of your entire story that you've created to make the two accounts fit together would be nice, too. I.e. a story that explains the hanging/exploding difference, the field naming difference, the field purchasing difference...

I don't think this topic deserves to die quite yet.

-B

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10-18-2002, 03:59 AM	#262
Baidarka Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 590	I would like to point out that the themes of the 2 versions of the story are also contradictory. In Matthew’s version Judas is remorseful. It is his feeling of remorse which leads him to give back the money and hang himself. In Acts a wicked, remorseless Judas buys land with his ill gotten gains and it is God who punishes him with a horrible and supernatural death. Not only are the harmonists playing loose with logic but they are destroying the literary intentions of the gospel writers. Matthew: Remorseful- Suicide Acts: Remorseless-Death by the hand of God. Harmonize that!

10-18-2002, 05:08 AM	#263
Butters Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston Texas Posts: 444	Posted by Leonarde, "4) A person is an "apologist"; what such a person engages in is "apologetics", not "apologitics" as Butters had it (his second misspelling in his first VERY short sentence)." The last gasp of a man with no defense for his position, criticize spelling and grammer! I plead guilty to never using a spell check. I also plead guilty to ignoring strict rules of grammer and form. I also never criticize others for their spelling and grammer errors, I would rather address their actual arguments. So since I am so slow, mabye you could explain to me EXACTLY what "wide recognition" means. I can't speak for Ion, but I would like to see your historical evidence for Jesus (the man). I Will not accept the references by Josephus, as at least in part they are forgeries, which even most Christian scholars will admit to.

10-19-2002, 03:19 PM	#267
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Good questions. And if Judas was with "the twelve", why did he not "believe" upon seeing the resurrected Christ, repent, and be redeemed? (or maybe he was...but then why would he kill himself?)

10-20-2002, 08:37 AM	#268
Baidarka Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 590	The passage that Bumble Bee Tuna points out implies, THAT IF ALL 12 DISCPLES WITNESSED THE RESURRECTION THEN THE MYTH OF JUDAS THE TRAITOR IS A LATE ADDITION TO THE STORY. It seems that this could be a pre-Judas as evil passage. This supports Hyam Maccaby’s contention that the Judas myth came out of the early Church’s rift with Judaism. So we can now introduce a third major contradictory thread, that the evil Judas traitor was a late unhistorical addition to the Christ myth which helps to explain why Luke and Mathew contradict each other. In other words since the story of Judas the traitor was a developing myth it was easy for the 2 competing writers to come up with different versions of the story.

10-29-2002, 08:37 AM	#270
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	This really deserves a bump... Seeing as we were finally making progress, and then the opposition just disappeared. I know this is typical of them but I for one don't intend to just let it fade away. To the Christians: Please respond to the latest issues: 1. Respond to the quote I just posted about Jesus appearing to "the twelve". I'm not a Biblical scholar and would like to see if that conclusion I mentioned is at all reasonable. 2. Tell us WHY a writer would leave out key details. Why would a writer write about an already-dead corpse exploding, and not about the actual hanging that killed it? 3. A summary of your entire story that you've created to make the two accounts fit together would be nice, too. I.e. a story that explains the hanging/exploding difference, the field naming difference, the field purchasing difference... I don't think this topic deserves to die quite yet. -B

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