Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pz · 02-25-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RoddyM
Thanks pz, I'll try to answer from your quote only for now so as not to have to re-read and refute the links from NIH.

You haven't refuted NIH, period. It is rather arrogant of you to claim that you have, especially when you are so reluctant to present evidence in support of your position.

Quote:

It's seems ridiculous to say that AIDS like symptoms occurred rarely before "HIV" was known. Starvation and dysentry are not new, yet we are able to diagnose people as HIV infected from a distance if they have a cough and are losing weight. Kaposi's sarcoma is not new although it was publicized as being new amongst gays in the early eighties. It was visible and could be made to be seen as something new and rampant although nowadays it is rare even amongst people with supposed HIV infection.

The signature consequence of AIDS is a compromise of the immune system, which leads to opportunistic infections. It is not surprising that the proximate causes of illness are diseases that are known to have other sources; the issue is what caused the root problem, the loss of immune function. That is new.

Quote:

Keep in mind that the concept of humans posessing an immune system is still new. The immune system is not like the digestive or skeletal system. The immune system is something that exists only when we don't have it, when we are dangerously ill. I suspect that the "immune system" is an artifact.

You can't possibly be serious, can you? This is about the most ridiculous pile of ignorant nonsense I've seen in a while, and I frequent the E/C forum. It's rather equivalent to claiming the digestive system doesn't exist except after you've had something to eat.

I've made monoclonal antibodies. I've ripped the spleens out of mice. I've dissected out lymph glands and bone marrow and the thymus. I've done blood smears. I've seen what can happen to people on immunosuppressants. Claiming that the immune system is an artifact...man, what are you smoking?

Principia · 02-25-2003, 01:16 PM

Quote:

RoddyM: Inoculate oneself with what? How is one going to find serum that contains HIV? There is no serum that reliably has HIV in it. How is anyone going to supply a serum that has HIV virus in it? You would have to buy into the notion that the blood of HIV positives has infectious HIV virus in it.

Well, this is an easy one, Rodd. You claim not to believe in the HIV tests. Get one that is seropositive by PCR. According to consensus, PCR is the most accurate test. Inoculate yourself with that.

Quote:

If you injected such a persons blood into your own bloodstream and did not "seroconvert" it would be seen as no proof. If you did "seroconvert" it would be reported as proof that HIV exists and is contagious. Yet even then it could be said by the mainsteam that the person was in the "window period" prior to inoculation or by the dissidents that the test is non-specific. There's a heap of reasons why such an experiment would not be proof of anything.

Well, then, repeat the experiment to your heart's content. Remember, you can be a skeptic all you want, but you offer nothing substantive as a substitute explanation. If you're so convinced that you won't get AIDS from the seropositive blood, then what is there to lose? Your credibility?

Jackalope · 02-26-2003, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RoddyM

Keep in mind that the concept of humans posessing an immune system is still new. The immune system is not like the digestive or skeletal system. The immune system is something that exists only when we don't have it, when we are dangerously ill. I suspect that the "immune system" is an artifact.

Say what? Invertibrates have an immune system. It's rather primitive compared to mammalian one, but it's there. Nevermind the nonsensical statement "the immune system is something that exists only when we don't have it." I can't even figure out what you were trying to say with that.

If the immune system is an "artifact" how do you explain autoimmunity? And how do you explain that one can do a CBC and count the numbers of white blood cells? Or are those somehow not part of the immune system?

Maybe you need to switch to name-brand crack.

doghouse · 02-26-2003, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MortalWombat
This is covered in the link I provided directly above:

Yea, I know. I was hoping RoddyM would say exactly what evidence he was disputing. So far he's been pretty vague, IMO, making it hard to have any sort of meaningful discussion.

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