Bait

Hi Sandlewood,
Actually, I realized I made a mistake in posting almost right from the start. Yes, I could get into a big debate...but it would serve no purpose, because I do not know all of the answers to your questions. You say that atheists are happy, well adjusted, etc...ok, fine, I respect that, and that may very well be the case for most atheists. But if it is really so all of the time, then why this thread to start with? There seems to be something missing to many of you, and a loneliness, and a fear of death that I haven't had since I converted to Christianity. I thought to share MY experience...that's all. But remember, that is MY experience, and I said so right up front, even gave a warning that if it offends you, do not go any further in the reading.

Contrary to popular belief, there is no real special reward for converting people...we don't get extra bonus points, or anything like that. We share because we care. Some get obnoxious about it in their zeal, I really try not to...as a personal policy. I try to respect your feelings, thoughts, and positions, and try to go out of my way to not show any disrespect to anyone. Everyone, no matter their belief, or lack thereof,deserves respect..IMHO.

As to benevolence, the God I worship has been very benevolent to me, and has given me, personally, great comfort.
But is he always benevolent to everyone? No, I do not think so, especially concerning his enemies, which is where many of you have a problem with. The Bible never says he is totally benevolent...only that he takes care of those who love him.

Really, I can see where Christianity is, or can be, illogical to you. And no, I do not have all of the answers. I wish I could answer all of the questions, especially the ones from ReasonableDoubt. Unfortunately, I can't, I'm not that smart, I do not know everything, and have to take some things by faith...which is also illogical to you. Fair enough. But I CAN say I did learn something from you (actually a lot of things), and do thank you for that. Hopefully, you also learn some things from me too, and realize that we do not have to be enemies. Rather we just have different views...nothing to get mad about. As an example, I forget who posted about God making evil...but if your reading this, thank your Rabbi friend for me. I had not seen that one, so I have to rethink one of my positions.

Look, I really, really, did not mean to upset or offend. Yes, I expected some comments, but I was actually surprised at the venomous of some of the attacks. I really do respect your positions, so I willingly back off the subject.
Bests,
Ron

Jayhawker Soule

But why? How do you manage to esteem respect and tolerance while worshipping a genocidal deity wholly devoid of such qualities? Ron, your Bible truly does portray something immensly cruel and devious. At the same time, there is zero archaeological evidence for the patriarchs and their YHWH-mandated slaughter. Would it not be more reasonable and more humane to acknowledge the bible as myth?

sidewinder

I just finished reading this entire thread. It's a great topic.

I'm not sure if I wish for God's existence or not. I think it's possible to perhaps build your own idea of the ideal God for humanity but it doesn't mean this God exists. My biggest problem with the existence of God is that there is not one shred of evidence that any God exists. The Christians claim that their God exists, they give him certain attributes, and explain how he relates to the world but where is the evidence for this God? Christians will answer: the Bible. Yet, the Bible cannot possibly be inspired by an all-perfect God for reasons which have been detailed many times on these boards. Further, what about the claims of Islam and Judaism? How does one prove which version of this God is the correct one? (Will the real God please stand up.)

Overall, the idea or concept of God is meaningless to me. You can define God a thousand different ways a thousand different ways but it means nothing. It doesn't mean any of these Gods exist. Jews, Christians, and Muslims pick one version of God and believe it but none of these verisons has any evidence for existence.

Malaclypse the Younger

Bait

Because Harumi posted the OP.

Existential angst appears to be part of the human condition. Personally, I want to think deeply about these issues and not accept easy, comfortable cult fantasies.

Just because you have simply stopped thinking about these question by adopting a comfortable fantasy is not a particularly strong argument. It should be noted that one can resolve existential angst merely by staying loaded on heroin. I actually pity you as much as I do the drug addict for copping out so quickly.

It doesn't offend me. Your life is your own; so long as you do me no harm I have nothing to object to. I find nothing attractive, though, about your experience--I would frankly be disgusted with myself to share the attitudes and beliefs that have led to your experiences.

Well, it could be argued that you share because you are so insecure about your beliefs that it is deeply morally threatening to you that some would not cop out so quickly. Since you cannot validate your position by reason, you must validate it by universal agreement and constant self-affirmation.

Many of us find your "caring" patronizing and condescending, not to mention ludicrous, and your cult leaders' preying on the weak-minded for political and economic gain ethically objectionable.

Yes, and the moderates (such as you yourself seem to be) appear to try to justify their behavior, rather than condemn it for its intrusive and socially obnoxious nature.

Good for you. I have vastly more respect for simple drug users as opposed to dealers.

The heroin works for me, and it's cheaper and less morally objectionable.

The concept of an omnimax deity having "enemies" is patently ludicrous.

"God" does not--cannot--have "enemies". Only your fantasy cult has enemies. And deservedly so.

And he doesn't even do that. According to the bible, you're supposed to "love" him even when he abuses you (ever read Job?). Really the relationship between the christian and his god is more like the relationship between an abused spouse and her abuser--or a drug addict to his sadistic dealer.

Ya think? Not only illogical but as immoral and unethical as a drug dealer in a kindergarten playground.

You don't appear to have any of the answers--when the questions get too tough, you reach for the needle and turn off your brain.

Faith = heroin. Grab that needle boy, and all your discomfort will be over--without the need for thought or consideration.

I am not your "enemy"--I am the enemy of your fantasy cult leaders who are exploiting the weak-minded for their own profit and gain. Similarly, I am the enemy of drug pushers, who do precisely the same thing. I merely pity their weak-minded victims, such as you yourself appear to be.

Careful. Once you start thinking, it becomes difficult to stop. Your cult fantasies will not stand much reason and investigation. It is disturbing to many to find out how thoroughly and completely they have been lied to.

If you want to keep your comfort (and it is your right to do so), I would advise you to stop thinking. Ask your priest or rabbi for the comfortable answers and just believe.

We are not "mad" at you or offended specifically by your position. But keep in mind that many, if not most, of us, consider christianity itself to be ethically objectionable, and its apologists, however polite, to be supporters of that morally objectionable ideology. Were you to espouse any other morally objectionable ideology (I hesitate to invoke Godwin's Law), however politely, you would be met with the same contempt.

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Malaclypse the Younger ]</p>

Not Prince Hamlet

Careful, there's a catch. I offer the following as an axiom to the system.

I don't believe that God exists, but if He did, and if everything you read in the Bible is true, then I believe that morality would be exactly those things that God tells you is moral.

In other words, the God in the Bible is immoral by our standards, but if God existed, His morality would be law. Nice would whatever God said was nice. Heck, even the English word "Good" comes from the Old English "God".

Again, I do not believe that a god exists. I'm just clarifying what I see the implication of the existence of God would mean.

Jeff

SharonDee

As has been noted, Ron, people were just answering the question posed by Harumi. A similar question could be asked of a Christian audience: what about God makes you wish He did not exist?

If members of your audience answered truthfully, you might get answers such as:

"It causes me pain to think my mother will spend eternity in hell."

"It was very hard for me to accept that God would allow my sister to have so much hardship when she (and we) humbly asked him daily to help her. If God didn't exist, I wouldn't be wracking my brain to figure out God's intention in letting bad things happen to her."

"I could be friends with people instead of always having to worry about their salvation, and making a pest of myself in the process."

Okay, that last one might be a bit of a stretch but I hope you see my point. This was a "gee, what if..." thread and the answers received weren't meant to show a general dissatisfaction with the life of an atheist; rather, what really neat stuff could a god (or a genie or a fairy or an extraterrestrial) do if there was one?

atheist_in_foxhole

Wouldn't it be nice if God was real?

If the bloodthirsty, cruel, petty, vindictive god of the Bible was real I would be horrified. It would be like finding out that a giant Nazi lives in the sky.

The same goes for other cruel gods like Allah etc.

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]</p>

Bait

Hi Reasonable,
Sorry we got off on the wrong foot with each other, and glad we are back to being civil.
Yes, God may be cruel and devious by YOUR mores, by YOUR code, by YOUR standards, YOUR moral codes. But you're looking at the Bible, and God from a very small vantage point, your own. Do you know everything that is going on in both the spiritual realm, as well as the physical? Do you, or anyone for that matter know, have knowledge of everything? Really, honestly, do you have 100% knowledge of everything in the universe, or in all of the dimensions (if you believe there are dimensions)...do you really even know for sure, 100%, totally, everything, about anything?

You see, no matter what I may say about my faith, or any faith for that matter (or even lack thereof) you can find something wrong with it, a flaw. That's why it's called faith. I make mistakes in my own logic, sometimes miss something...sometimes having to reevaluate, adjust, learn. I don't see God as cruel, immoral...but you do, which is a difference in opinion. It's a circular argument...no winners. But like your friend says, IF God is God, the creator, the one who determines what exactly is moral, the one who makes the laws, who are you to say he is immoral? Do YOU know what was in the hearts and minds of those he eliminated? Do you know all of the circumstances that lead up to their destruction? Do you even know what their worship (Baal as I recall) entailed? Is it moral to kill one of the Taliban, if they refuse to surrender, and refuse to change, and continue to try to blow up innocents? Do YOU know the entire story, or just the part that says he ordered them destroyed?

As an example, IF you do not know everything,100%, total knowledge about every subject, can you be absolutely 100% sure there is no such thing as god(s), or a god, or even the God of Abraham? There my friend is the flaw in YOUR logic unless you DO know everything. And if you DO know everything, well, perhaps I should be worshipping you....Right?

So lets just part friends on this, agree to disagree. I already apologized for causing a stir, lets leave it at that.
Ron



[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Bait ]</p>

atheist_in_foxhole

Ron, if god told you to torture and kill little babies would you do it?

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: atheist_in_foxhole ]</p>

sidewinder

What is the "spiritual realm" exactly? Is this realm outside our natural world? If so, how do you know that such a realm exists? What evidence do you have to prove that it exists?

Not one person living now or in the past knows everything about the universe we inhabit. It's doubtful if even future humans will be able to know everything about the universe. But why does it matter at all? We learn what we can about the world we inhabit in order to make it a better place for humans to live. Are you saying that since no one knows everything, we should have faith in a god? It's nonsense. If that's the basis of your faith, then you are wasting your life.

It's called faith because it's grounded in hoping or wishing something is true. Faith is not based on evidence. Faith does not equal truth. You are putting your faith in the ideas of other men. You've accepted a prepackaged set of beliefs. You haven't thought for yourself.

I will preface these comments by stating that I strongly disbelieve that the Biblical God exists.

We are thinking beings and as such we can judge morality for ourselves, which includes the morality claimed to be upheld by the Biblical God. As for the ones whom God allegedly eliminated, since you accept that God knew what he was doing, don't you think it would've been much easier if God could've thrown in a few explanation verses. Wouldn't you like to know why it was necessary to wipe out entire groups of people, including babies?

You are once again implying that all should believe in god, presumably your version of god, because we can't know all things. If that's the basis of your faith, you are one sad individual. I would like to say that I wish all religious believers were moderate like you. It would make the world a much more peaceful place.