Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pulp · 08-15-2002, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lcb:
<strong>q. 2. you are in a foxhole with five wounded men who will live but cannot move for now, a grenade lands in the foxhole, will you sacrifice yourself to save those five men?</strong>

Yes, I probably would... I like to think I would

Well, I should yes

lcb · 08-15-2002, 07:17 PM

let us both go Pulp..." a rope made of many strands is not easily broken"!

WinAce · 08-15-2002, 08:06 PM

I would be a hypocrite if I said I would do this or that in any given situation. There are good reasons which I would think would allow me to sacrifice my own life for others, but it's difficult to predict my actions, or those of anyone else, in the actual heat of the moment.

It would rationally appear to be worth it to save 5 lives for one, especially when you have the consent of the person to be sacrificed. However, survival instincts and numerous other factors would result in a complex mental tug-of-war.

*Updates questions again* There, now it's almost finished. Just like it will be this time next year, when I'm still refining it.

Jobar · 08-15-2002, 09:10 PM

WinAce, I like your questionaire- even as is, it is well worth presenting to anyone who both claims to be religious, and claims to be willing to examine his own beliefs. Sad that far too few are willing to examine their faith.

When you complete it to your own satisfaction, you might call it to the attention of the board administrators. It may find a place in the SecWeb library!

WinAce · 08-16-2002, 03:54 PM

Thanks for the nice comment

I keep adding questions every single day, so I can't envision when it'll be completed to my own satisfaction. For instance, I just added what is possibly one of the most powerful, inspired by a post over at the ChristianForums:

Quote:

13. If people who have never heard the Gospels are judged on their relative merits, many morally objectionable results, such as infants, third-world tribesmen or honestly mistaken people unfairly going to hell, are removed. If that is the case, people who have heard the Gospels, however, will be judged mainly by whether or not they accepted them. The logical implications are completely shocking: if you're basically a good person, the main effect hearing the story of Jesus will have is increase your chances of going to Hell, should you reject it. Conversely, if you're a very evil person, hearing the Good News will only increase your chances of going to Heaven, should you accept it. Suppressing Christianity may thus paradoxically result in more good souls being saved and more evil ones being condemned, which is more in line with our own values of fairness. Given this stunning possibility, could completely refusing to evangelize Christianity itself, instead promoting a just ethical code, actually be the morally right thing to do, despite the possible consequences to your own salvation?
Yes ( ) No ( )

WinAce · 08-29-2002, 06:57 PM

Hah. I just got my first, very own <a href="http://www.tektonics.org/glennall01.html" target="_blank">ultra-patronizing rebuttal</a> on Tektonics.org courtesy of J.P. Holding himself. Is that like some atheist rite of passage?

I noticed they replied to an earlier, somewhat outdated version of the questionnaire so I'm now including version numbers in it.

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: WinAce ]</p>

Philosoft · 08-30-2002, 07:09 AM

I like the responses to the section about Human Psychology.

In essence:
"Yes, all these are perfectly acceptable explanations of human mental quirks but none of them apply because our mysticisms are true. Of course, our mysticisms aren't really mysticisms because they are true."

K · 08-30-2002, 08:05 AM

Wow! It scares me the amount of handwaving that some people can do to try to hide the obvious inconsistencies in their fairy tales.

uhcord · 08-30-2002, 11:19 AM

In the "History of religion" section I suggest you add something about the parallels of Christian Gospels and Pagan Mythology, which is in close relation to number 2. It will give you a bit more fuel for that section. A good website about it is located here, <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm</A>

wade-w · 08-31-2002, 01:35 PM

I've been looking for an online text of Voltaire's The Questions of Zapata It is a hilarious satire, in which a friar is asking his superiors for advice on how to answer various perplexing questions that his flock keeps asking.

So far, I've not been able to find an English version. There seen to be several sites that have it online, but they are all in French, which do me no good whatsoever. Oh well...

Its been a while since I read it, and my books are in storage right now

, but I seem to recall passages were he conludes that "apparently God doesn't know much about geography" or "anatomy", among other subjects you would expect the omniscient creator to be well aware of.

I will be going out there to pay the rent on the space early next week, and I'll grab it then. You may be able to adapt some of it to your questionnare. It is public domain material.

And congrats on your review making the big time!
(An aside, the essay I'm talking abourt is reviewed there as well.)

Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has..."
-- Martin Luther

[ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: wadew ]</p>

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08-15-2002, 07:17 PM	#22
lcb Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: washington d.c. Posts: 224	let us both go Pulp..." a rope made of many strands is not easily broken"!

08-15-2002, 08:06 PM	#23
WinAce Beloved Deceased Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Carrboro, NC Posts: 1,539	I would be a hypocrite if I said I would do this or that in any given situation. There are good reasons which I would think would allow me to sacrifice my own life for others, but it's difficult to predict my actions, or those of anyone else, in the actual heat of the moment. It would rationally appear to be worth it to save 5 lives for one, especially when you have the consent of the person to be sacrificed. However, survival instincts and numerous other factors would result in a complex mental tug-of-war. Updates questions again There, now it's almost finished. Just like it will be this time next year, when I'm still refining it.

08-15-2002, 09:10 PM	#24
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	WinAce, I like your questionaire- even as is, it is well worth presenting to anyone who both claims to be religious, and claims to be willing to examine his own beliefs. Sad that far too few are willing to examine their faith. When you complete it to your own satisfaction, you might call it to the attention of the board administrators. It may find a place in the SecWeb library!

08-29-2002, 06:57 PM	#26
WinAce Beloved Deceased Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Carrboro, NC Posts: 1,539	Hah. I just got my first, very own <a href="http://www.tektonics.org/glennall01.html" target="_blank">ultra-patronizing rebuttal</a> on Tektonics.org courtesy of J.P. Holding himself. Is that like some atheist rite of passage? I noticed they replied to an earlier, somewhat outdated version of the questionnaire so I'm now including version numbers in it. [ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: WinAce ]</p>

08-30-2002, 07:09 AM	#27
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	I like the responses to the section about Human Psychology. In essence: "Yes, all these are perfectly acceptable explanations of human mental quirks but none of them apply because our mysticisms are true. Of course, our mysticisms aren't really mysticisms because they are true."

08-30-2002, 08:05 AM	#28
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Wow! It scares me the amount of handwaving that some people can do to try to hide the obvious inconsistencies in their fairy tales.

08-30-2002, 11:19 AM	#29
uhcord Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,158	In the "History of religion" section I suggest you add something about the parallels of Christian Gospels and Pagan Mythology, which is in close relation to number 2. It will give you a bit more fuel for that section. A good website about it is located here, <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm</A>

08-31-2002, 01:35 PM	#30
wade-w Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Silver City, New Mexico Posts: 1,872	I've been looking for an online text of Voltaire's The Questions of Zapata It is a hilarious satire, in which a friar is asking his superiors for advice on how to answer various perplexing questions that his flock keeps asking. So far, I've not been able to find an English version. There seen to be several sites that have it online, but they are all in French, which do me no good whatsoever. Oh well... Its been a while since I read it, and my books are in storage right now , but I seem to recall passages were he conludes that "apparently God doesn't know much about geography" or "anatomy", among other subjects you would expect the omniscient creator to be well aware of. I will be going out there to pay the rent on the space early next week, and I'll grab it then. You may be able to adapt some of it to your questionnare. It is public domain material. And congrats on your review making the big time! (An aside, the essay I'm talking abourt is reviewed there as well.) Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has..." -- Martin Luther [ August 31, 2002: Message edited by: wadew ]</p>

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