Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Starboy · 04-29-2003, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel
This makes me think you don't know what "god-of-the-gaps" actually is...

Could be. What is it Tercel?

Starboy

Rhea · 04-30-2003, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
I'm saying if they were just inventing stories about miracles, WHICH IS THE OBVIOUS POINT, why did they stop? According to the assertions made above, they would logically have continued to do so until at least 1000 AD. And that's just the problem with the logic. There still are miracles still occurring and even a rare one makes nonsense of the above logic. If he said "Far fewer healings are considered miraculous now that science can explain them," we might have something rational and provable to talk about.

I don't see how that's the obvious point. The point is that God stopped, apparently, according to your religion. It does not follow to argue against the fabrication theory.

But anyway, it seems like you're saying that the "entirely false premise" that
1. God used to do big things when people were ignorant and
2. God doesn't anymore and people are less ignorant.
isn't entirely false after all.

Why did they stop inventing miracles? Did they continue until 1000 AD (arbitrary number, but I'll accept it for now). But I guess that's what people here are saying. They DID continue on through then. Genevieve, the others people posted about. So what is your position now. They did continue to make things up for a long time. As long as humans were pretty ignorant.

Why, for those who believe in God, did God stop performing big spectacular unequivocal miracles?

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
I saw a program on DHC or DSC channel called "Medical Miracles" in which at least two doctors believed they had seen a bonafide miracle. According to the above assertions, they should know. One involved inoperable brain cancer, spreading rapidly and then simply disappearing in two days, and the other involved the spontaneous recovery of sight by a man struck by lightning who was declared permanently blinded. I have personally seen a completely deaf boy healed and beginning to make sounds which resembled what he began to hear, and I have seen the glory of God shimmering around a person's leg as it grew out well over an inch. (I'm casting pearlas here I'm afraid).

That's the first I've ever heard of someone claiming to witness a limb regrow. How fast did it happen? Where is it published? _Surely_ such an extraordinary thing is published! It would be an unbelievable witnessing tool. I am anxious to read about it.

As for the others, I guess one of the premises of this debate is the discussion of why the change from BIG SPECTACULAR miracles like parting seas and burning bushes and pillars of salt, to individual ambiguous miracles only witnessed by a few. That's the question. And a "miracle" experienced by a few people that has non-miracle examples is just totally different than pillars of salt and parting seas. We can agree on that, right?

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
And your questions have been well answered by me before. Still waiting for you to find my list of Christian examples, and provide atheist counter-examples, BTW.

How can you say this? How can you ignore my post "Radorth, I can't find them. I tried. Please list them for me again" and say _I_ am the one not answering? Do you want me to answer again? Sure. Here it is. "Radorth, I can't find them. I tried. Please list them for me again". The questions I'm waiting for don't have such a response from you. I don't know how else to say it, Radorth. I can't find what you claim you posted. If you are honest about wanting an answer, please re-post. Start a new thread if you want, "Christian Do-Gooders VS Atheist Do-Gooders - THUNDERDOME" (Well aren't we a pair. Raggedy Man.)

Radorth · 04-30-2003, 08:20 AM

I did a whole thread on Chistian accomplishments called "Authentic Disciples." You can look that up if you are interested. Why should I have a discussion with somebody who doesn't even read posts is beyond me. The list you are talking about occurred like one page earlier on that thread so it's obvious you never bothered to read my posts.

As for inventing miracles, your're just mucking up the water I think. I asked (more accurately) why the number of miracles reported by the apostles and church fathers suddenly "slowed to a crawl." It obviously didn't occur because of scientific discoveries.

Your point about "big" miracles not happening is misleading as well, because even "small" one's like legs growing out or brain cancer disappearing exposes the simplistic logic being used here.

Rad

Yellum Notnef · 04-30-2003, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth

Your point about "big" miracles not happening is misleading as well, because even "small" one's like legs growing out or brain cancer disappearing exposes the simplistic logic being used here.

I know you don't care much for me,but could you be a peach and give a link for just one case of the "legs growing out" miracle?

Thanks

Rhea · 04-30-2003, 08:55 AM

Reviewing: This is from the OP

Quote:

Originally posted by JakeJohnson
But enough of the small stuff, where are the truly amazing miracles? The sun staying in the sky for 3 days, food multiplying in amazing quantities, or any of the other stories mentioned in the bible. Has god become lazy? Or is it because we have science these days to disprove any such BS that one might try and pass off as a miracle.

Then Radorth says, regarding my post above:

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth

Your point about "big" miracles not happening is misleading as well, because even "small" one's like legs growing out or brain cancer disappearing exposes the simplistic logic being used here.

Rad

Noooo. It doesn't indicate simplistic logic. The POINT of this discussion is why the big miracles back when nobody was likely to disprove them and why NONE of the big miracles now that people could?

So, it's NOT misleading. It is the CENTRAL POINT.

...

Still looking forward to your showing me where I can read more about legs growing out. This is a fantastic event and I'm sure the media was riveted. Just a URL is fine. Or even a publication date and title. Maybe a second witness? Knowing the detail of the actual length it grew is a good indication that you have additional evidence. That you had measured it beforehand, for example.

Can't wait.

lpetrich · 04-30-2003, 01:42 PM

Radorth:
I did a whole thread on Chistian accomplishments called "Authentic Disciples." ...

In which forum here? I'm not going to go on some wild goose chase.

As for inventing miracles, your're just mucking up the water I think. I asked (more accurately) why the number of miracles reported by the apostles and church fathers suddenly "slowed to a crawl." It obviously didn't occur because of scientific discoveries.

Miracles tend to multiply with increasing distance from some Great Event. Consider the case of St. Francis Xavier. Those closest to him noted that he usually used interpreters and he had difficulty learning Japanese, while it was only later that stories started to appear of him having the Gift of Tongues -- speaking several languages without having to learn them.

Your point about "big" miracles not happening is misleading as well, because even "small" one's like legs growing out or brain cancer disappearing exposes the simplistic logic being used here.
Brain cancer disappearing? "Spontaneous remission" is a rare phenomenon in which cancers disappear without any apparent cause. Possibly because of its rarity, it is not well-understood, but it is not confined to the followers of any one religion.

Legs growing out? I'd like to see some before-and-after measurements.

And why do legs grow out only a little? Why don't complete legs grow from stumps?

Starboy · 04-30-2003, 01:48 PM

What is so funny about the faithful is they are more than happy to attribute to god the strange things that happen that are benificial. What about all the strange happenings where people end up dead or their lives are destroyed or their health permanently ruined. Does god get credit for those anti-miracles or are they just unexplained natural phenomena?

Starboy

Radorth · 04-30-2003, 10:10 PM

From Starboy, yet another of his endless, obvious, general principles:

Quote:

One of them is to claim supernatural interventions and another is to explain them naturally.

I do both, because I'm capable of identifying more than two alternatives which are neither black or white.

Quote:

You don't belong in the twenty first century.

My boss disagrees apparently, every time he assigns me a problem no one else in our group of 40 people knows how to solve, or tells one of them to go ask me alone, or compliments me for a unique technical contribution to advanced astronomical programs.

Rad

lpetrich · 05-01-2003, 12:15 AM

Let's see Radorth use Biblical cosmology to solve those "advanced astronomical problems".

Yellum Notnef · 05-01-2003, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth

My boss disagrees apparently, every time he assigns me a problem no one else in our group of 40 people knows how to solve, or tells one of them to go ask me alone, or compliments me for a unique technical contribution to advanced astronomical programs.

Did your boss ever ask you about the "legs growing out" miracle?

I'm just curious because the question went totally ignored when we asked you about it.

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04-30-2003, 08:20 AM	#63
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	I did a whole thread on Chistian accomplishments called "Authentic Disciples." You can look that up if you are interested. Why should I have a discussion with somebody who doesn't even read posts is beyond me. The list you are talking about occurred like one page earlier on that thread so it's obvious you never bothered to read my posts. As for inventing miracles, your're just mucking up the water I think. I asked (more accurately) why the number of miracles reported by the apostles and church fathers suddenly "slowed to a crawl." It obviously didn't occur because of scientific discoveries. Your point about "big" miracles not happening is misleading as well, because even "small" one's like legs growing out or brain cancer disappearing exposes the simplistic logic being used here. Rad

04-30-2003, 01:42 PM	#66
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Radorth: I did a whole thread on Chistian accomplishments called "Authentic Disciples." ... In which forum here? I'm not going to go on some wild goose chase. As for inventing miracles, your're just mucking up the water I think. I asked (more accurately) why the number of miracles reported by the apostles and church fathers suddenly "slowed to a crawl." It obviously didn't occur because of scientific discoveries. Miracles tend to multiply with increasing distance from some Great Event. Consider the case of St. Francis Xavier. Those closest to him noted that he usually used interpreters and he had difficulty learning Japanese, while it was only later that stories started to appear of him having the Gift of Tongues -- speaking several languages without having to learn them. Your point about "big" miracles not happening is misleading as well, because even "small" one's like legs growing out or brain cancer disappearing exposes the simplistic logic being used here. Brain cancer disappearing? "Spontaneous remission" is a rare phenomenon in which cancers disappear without any apparent cause. Possibly because of its rarity, it is not well-understood, but it is not confined to the followers of any one religion. Legs growing out? I'd like to see some before-and-after measurements. And why do legs grow out only a little? Why don't complete legs grow from stumps?

04-30-2003, 01:48 PM	#67
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	What is so funny about the faithful is they are more than happy to attribute to god the strange things that happen that are benificial. What about all the strange happenings where people end up dead or their lives are destroyed or their health permanently ruined. Does god get credit for those anti-miracles or are they just unexplained natural phenomena? Starboy

05-01-2003, 12:15 AM	#69
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Let's see Radorth use Biblical cosmology to solve those "advanced astronomical problems".

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